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Topics: Agile, IT Project Management, Scrum
In a Scrum 'Project' who is responsible for paying the salaries?
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The concept of 'Scrum Project' or using Scrum as a Project Management framework is widely spread in software companies.
Ina 'traditional' project the PM is responsible for financial management, signing timesheets and Invoices, tracking costs etc. The Scrum Guide doesn't mention who puts the money on the table. It the PO responsible to manage money or the SM?
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Stelian -

We've beaten the topic of PMs and Scrum to death before in this forum, but if you try to implement what is in the Scrum Guide verbatim, most of the activities performed by the PM would be split between the PO & SM, and financial management (e.g. P&L) would usually go to the PO.

However, outside of product development companies, most typical organizations will maintain the role of a PM who would continue to be responsible for financial management.

Kiron
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Jan 30, 2019 11:48 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Thanks Kiron, I know that the topic PM-SM + PO is not new. What you propose is a common sense approach that i a training room seems ok. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.
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Fully agree with Kiron. In my scrum-driven projects we still have a PM/PMO taking care of the Financial/ Contractual topics besides other things like communication to the organization acting as "translators" from the agile world into the "traditional world".
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Jan 30, 2019 11:50 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Thanks Peter. Not every organisation has a PMO. Scrum is widely used in software companies that won't have a PMO or even a PM..
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A Project Manager/Scrum Master are generally responsible for Budgeting and Forecasting what the team members (external Contractors or internal charge-back model ) are going to cost.
Then they track the project team member expenses as the project is in delivery.
The PM may either approve time-sheets or the hiring manager/Product Owner may approve time sheets , it really depends on the company structure.
But I have rarely heard a Project Manager paying employee salaries. That is almost always done by the Finance or Payroll department.
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2 replies by Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM® and Stelian ROMAN
Jan 30, 2019 11:43 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Scrum Master responsible for budgeting and forecasting? Financial Forecasting in Scrum?
I read the Scrum Guide many times but I don't recall financials as SM's responsibilities.
Also I am pretty sure that there is no Project Manager role in Scrum.

When I said 'paying' i wasn't referring to the actual pay but to securing the money to pay.
Jan 30, 2019 11:58 PM
Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM®
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The organizations these days hire a scrum master and ask them to manage financials . The days of doing things by the book have long gone.

On the flip side they want to call a Scrum Master a PM and they want a PM to do a scrum Master role.

In any case . There is one person on the project who overlooks the finances . Call him a PM, Scrum Master or Mickey Mouse :)
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In a simple setup (without consultants), the salary responsibility may just stay with the line manager outside of the Scrum. In a more advances setup I've seen the financial control part more with the Scrum master, because he's typically at the delivery side, while the product owner is at the customer side. However, the product owner will have the budget responsibility.
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Jan 30, 2019 11:46 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Line Manager in Scrum? I though that the team is self organised...
The Scrum Guide doesn't mention Financial Management as a SM responsibility nor responsibility for delivery.
SM is a facilitator, responsible for the Scrum process. The famous 'servant leader'.
I also don't understand why only the PO is 'at the customer side'. Is the rest of the Scrum Team opposite to the customer?
Network:929



Jan 30, 2019 6:29 PM
Replying to Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM®
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A Project Manager/Scrum Master are generally responsible for Budgeting and Forecasting what the team members (external Contractors or internal charge-back model ) are going to cost.
Then they track the project team member expenses as the project is in delivery.
The PM may either approve time-sheets or the hiring manager/Product Owner may approve time sheets , it really depends on the company structure.
But I have rarely heard a Project Manager paying employee salaries. That is almost always done by the Finance or Payroll department.
Scrum Master responsible for budgeting and forecasting? Financial Forecasting in Scrum?
I read the Scrum Guide many times but I don't recall financials as SM's responsibilities.
Also I am pretty sure that there is no Project Manager role in Scrum.

When I said 'paying' i wasn't referring to the actual pay but to securing the money to pay.
Network:929



Jan 30, 2019 6:47 PM
Replying to Mirko Blüming
...
In a simple setup (without consultants), the salary responsibility may just stay with the line manager outside of the Scrum. In a more advances setup I've seen the financial control part more with the Scrum master, because he's typically at the delivery side, while the product owner is at the customer side. However, the product owner will have the budget responsibility.
Line Manager in Scrum? I though that the team is self organised...
The Scrum Guide doesn't mention Financial Management as a SM responsibility nor responsibility for delivery.
SM is a facilitator, responsible for the Scrum process. The famous 'servant leader'.
I also don't understand why only the PO is 'at the customer side'. Is the rest of the Scrum Team opposite to the customer?
Network:929



Jan 29, 2019 8:45 AM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Stelian -

We've beaten the topic of PMs and Scrum to death before in this forum, but if you try to implement what is in the Scrum Guide verbatim, most of the activities performed by the PM would be split between the PO & SM, and financial management (e.g. P&L) would usually go to the PO.

However, outside of product development companies, most typical organizations will maintain the role of a PM who would continue to be responsible for financial management.

Kiron
Thanks Kiron, I know that the topic PM-SM + PO is not new. What you propose is a common sense approach that i a training room seems ok. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.
Network:929



Jan 29, 2019 9:26 AM
Replying to Peter Ambrosy
...
Fully agree with Kiron. In my scrum-driven projects we still have a PM/PMO taking care of the Financial/ Contractual topics besides other things like communication to the organization acting as "translators" from the agile world into the "traditional world".
Thanks Peter. Not every organisation has a PMO. Scrum is widely used in software companies that won't have a PMO or even a PM..
Network:517



Jan 30, 2019 6:29 PM
Replying to Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM®
...
A Project Manager/Scrum Master are generally responsible for Budgeting and Forecasting what the team members (external Contractors or internal charge-back model ) are going to cost.
Then they track the project team member expenses as the project is in delivery.
The PM may either approve time-sheets or the hiring manager/Product Owner may approve time sheets , it really depends on the company structure.
But I have rarely heard a Project Manager paying employee salaries. That is almost always done by the Finance or Payroll department.
The organizations these days hire a scrum master and ask them to manage financials . The days of doing things by the book have long gone.

On the flip side they want to call a Scrum Master a PM and they want a PM to do a scrum Master role.

In any case . There is one person on the project who overlooks the finances . Call him a PM, Scrum Master or Mickey Mouse :)
...
1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Jan 31, 2019 12:03 AM
Stelian ROMAN
...
It's good to read the Scrum Guide. I am not aware of the Mickey Mouse framework.
If you meet a real SM ask him to explain you what Scrum is about. It is one of his responsibilities,

'The Scrum Master is responsible for promoting and supporting Scrum as defined in the Scrum Guide. Scrum Masters do this by helping everyone understand Scrum theory, practices, rules, and values.

"Scrum’s roles, events, artifacts, and rules are immutable and although implementing only parts of Scrum is possible, the result is not Scrum."
Network:929



Jan 30, 2019 11:58 PM
Replying to Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM®
...
The organizations these days hire a scrum master and ask them to manage financials . The days of doing things by the book have long gone.

On the flip side they want to call a Scrum Master a PM and they want a PM to do a scrum Master role.

In any case . There is one person on the project who overlooks the finances . Call him a PM, Scrum Master or Mickey Mouse :)
It's good to read the Scrum Guide. I am not aware of the Mickey Mouse framework.
If you meet a real SM ask him to explain you what Scrum is about. It is one of his responsibilities,

'The Scrum Master is responsible for promoting and supporting Scrum as defined in the Scrum Guide. Scrum Masters do this by helping everyone understand Scrum theory, practices, rules, and values.

"Scrum’s roles, events, artifacts, and rules are immutable and although implementing only parts of Scrum is possible, the result is not Scrum."
...
2 replies by Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM® and Stelian ROMAN
Jan 31, 2019 12:20 AM
Deepesh Rammoorthy, PMP®AgilePM®
...
I really value a person who delivers successful projects , engages with stakeholders effectively , builds relationships, satisfies customers.
If it's a Mickey Mouse or Minnie Mouse and they have delivered successful projects , I don't mind if they have done it using Waterfall , Agile, Scrum, SaFe, DSDM, XP or "invent your own PM method" or "mix and match method".
I also don't mind using scrum practices and not certainly do not like to be very rigid or by-the-book.
I also would not be opposed if asked to manage finances when I am running a typical "Scrum " project.
Financial management is a good skill to have for anyone , not just a PM or a Scrum Master.
Jan 31, 2019 2:08 AM
Stelian ROMAN
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Deepesh, I have to tell you that the question was deliberately misleading. (apologies to the others who got it). There is no such thing as a Scrum Project. That's why it is in quotes. A project is defined by scope, time and budget. Scrum is a (good) product development framework that manages the scope only. ('Scrum is a framework for developing, delivering, and sustaining complex products'). As I said it is very useful to read the Scrum Guide to get an idea about what Scrum is.

What you describe it's called in the PM professional community a cowboy. It is a 'hero' that saves the day by 'engaging with stakeholders effectively , building relationships, and satisfying customers'. A professional PM is managing the project and the project team.
A project is delivered by a team, not by the PM and real projects are always delivered adhering to a framework.

Interesting enough you mentioned only software product delivery frameworks, one of them (DSDM) being extinct for many years. It was a failed experiment that was revived to make money from training courses and certifications. An experienced PM will start with PMBoK and PRINCE2, frameworks developed to manage projects (scope, budget and time) and not limited to software development.

Maybe you didn't know but the 'Mickey Mouse' project concept is pretty old. It means a Change Request elevated to the project status.
.
I am afraid that you also missed the point that my previous quotes are from the Scrum Guide, Scrum being the focus of my question. The second one means that you can do whatever you want, including the cowboy approach but you should not call it Scrum. As part of my Scrum Master duties I have to mention that the framework is called Scrum with capital S and without quotes.
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