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Accountability of team members - difference in self-managed and hierarchical teams?
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What is the difference in accountability of a member of a self-managed, e.g. Scrum team vs. a traditional hierarchical project team?
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Scrum teams are self-organized, not self-manged. A self-organized team is "Self-organizing teams choose how best to accomplish their work, rather than being directed by others outside the team". Self-organized is not about structure, is about dynamic. We use hirarchical structures with self-organized dynamic.
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1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 20, 2019 3:14 AM
Thomas Walenta
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Sergio, thanks.
I struggle to see how hierarchical structures can co-exist with self-organization within the same team.
Network:1304



Thomas -

Usually with self-managed teams the emphasis is on team goals rather than the individual ones we often see as being the focus in hierarchical ones. There is also the expectation that each team member will contribute to defining how the work will be done by the team vs. that being imposed from outside the team or by a single senior team member.

Kiron
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1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 20, 2019 3:17 AM
Thomas Walenta
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Hi Kiron, thanks.
The difference between team and individual goals is important. Do you tell each team member that his individual goal is the same as the team goal or do you add or restrict it for them? Also, as team members normally have different capacities and roles, should the individual goal be different for everyone?
Network:110646



Thomas,

Self-manage or self-organized don't remove the accountability of any team member. In my mind, they are even more accountable.
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1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 20, 2019 3:11 AM
Thomas Walenta
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Vincent, thanks for your reply.
What would be an example for more accountability? (or less)
If there is a team goal, rather than an individual goal given from the outside of the team, is every team member still held accountable for the team goal?
Network:1887



Feb 19, 2019 8:02 PM
Replying to Vincent Guerard
...
Thomas,

Self-manage or self-organized don't remove the accountability of any team member. In my mind, they are even more accountable.
Vincent, thanks for your reply.
What would be an example for more accountability? (or less)
If there is a team goal, rather than an individual goal given from the outside of the team, is every team member still held accountable for the team goal?
Network:1887



Feb 19, 2019 1:20 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
...
Scrum teams are self-organized, not self-manged. A self-organized team is "Self-organizing teams choose how best to accomplish their work, rather than being directed by others outside the team". Self-organized is not about structure, is about dynamic. We use hirarchical structures with self-organized dynamic.
Sergio, thanks.
I struggle to see how hierarchical structures can co-exist with self-organization within the same team.
...
1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Feb 20, 2019 9:27 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
...
Sorry but I realy do not understand your comment. It is natural to have hierarchical structures working in self-organized way. Are two totaly different things. The first is "the format". The other is "the style".Just to comment we are doing that in my actual work place using Scrum to create software and non-software products.
Network:1887



Feb 19, 2019 6:38 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Thomas -

Usually with self-managed teams the emphasis is on team goals rather than the individual ones we often see as being the focus in hierarchical ones. There is also the expectation that each team member will contribute to defining how the work will be done by the team vs. that being imposed from outside the team or by a single senior team member.

Kiron
Hi Kiron, thanks.
The difference between team and individual goals is important. Do you tell each team member that his individual goal is the same as the team goal or do you add or restrict it for them? Also, as team members normally have different capacities and roles, should the individual goal be different for everyone?
...
1 reply by Kiron Bondale
Feb 20, 2019 6:09 PM
Kiron Bondale
...
Thomas -

It's not that there aren't individual goals in agile teams, but we don't place those ahead of the team's goals. One would hope the two can be aligned - for example, gaining mastery over a particular technology may help the team deliver faster or with better quality.

Kiron
Network:1746



Feb 20, 2019 3:14 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Sergio, thanks.
I struggle to see how hierarchical structures can co-exist with self-organization within the same team.
Sorry but I realy do not understand your comment. It is natural to have hierarchical structures working in self-organized way. Are two totaly different things. The first is "the format". The other is "the style".Just to comment we are doing that in my actual work place using Scrum to create software and non-software products.
...
1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 20, 2019 11:13 AM
Thomas Walenta
...
Sergio, that's why I am asking, to get your view and understand better.

I worked with Scrum teams and they opposed any hierarchy ("a system in which members of an organization are ranked according to relative status or authority") within the team. The belief is that self-organizing means that no outsider can give them directions how they work and inside decision making is either defined by the role (like PO) or by consensus.

How does hierarchy look like in your environment?
Network:1887



Feb 20, 2019 9:27 AM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
...
Sorry but I realy do not understand your comment. It is natural to have hierarchical structures working in self-organized way. Are two totaly different things. The first is "the format". The other is "the style".Just to comment we are doing that in my actual work place using Scrum to create software and non-software products.
Sergio, that's why I am asking, to get your view and understand better.

I worked with Scrum teams and they opposed any hierarchy ("a system in which members of an organization are ranked according to relative status or authority") within the team. The belief is that self-organizing means that no outsider can give them directions how they work and inside decision making is either defined by the role (like PO) or by consensus.

How does hierarchy look like in your environment?
...
1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Feb 20, 2019 1:07 PM
Sergio Luis Conte
...
The name in Scrum is self-organized, not self-managed. So, authority must kept in the framework of Scrum. Forget about the discussion on the definition (I can put here other definition related to the structure not the chain of authority), few people know that the basement of team dynamic that Agile has taken is CMU SEI TSP. For example, if we talk about an Agile based method, when I was part of the group of authors of DSDM where I worked dierectly with Arie Van Bennekum, he created the team dynamic component in DSDM and including today he is working the best work I read about team dynamic to apply in the Agile field.I am mentioned that just in case something is interested in known about that.Other example is here: https://steveblank.com/2016/11/10/how-the-...ation-culture/. I have participated in several cases like this.
When you use something inside an organization to do something architecture layers must be taken into account. Despite the organizational structure when top management is involved into an Scrum team they must understand they are guiding instead of directing and it they accept they must performing the role they have accepted to perform.
Network:1746



Feb 20, 2019 11:13 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Sergio, that's why I am asking, to get your view and understand better.

I worked with Scrum teams and they opposed any hierarchy ("a system in which members of an organization are ranked according to relative status or authority") within the team. The belief is that self-organizing means that no outsider can give them directions how they work and inside decision making is either defined by the role (like PO) or by consensus.

How does hierarchy look like in your environment?
The name in Scrum is self-organized, not self-managed. So, authority must kept in the framework of Scrum. Forget about the discussion on the definition (I can put here other definition related to the structure not the chain of authority), few people know that the basement of team dynamic that Agile has taken is CMU SEI TSP. For example, if we talk about an Agile based method, when I was part of the group of authors of DSDM where I worked dierectly with Arie Van Bennekum, he created the team dynamic component in DSDM and including today he is working the best work I read about team dynamic to apply in the Agile field.I am mentioned that just in case something is interested in known about that.Other example is here: https://steveblank.com/2016/11/10/how-the-...ation-culture/. I have participated in several cases like this.
When you use something inside an organization to do something architecture layers must be taken into account. Despite the organizational structure when top management is involved into an Scrum team they must understand they are guiding instead of directing and it they accept they must performing the role they have accepted to perform.
Network:1304



Feb 20, 2019 3:17 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Hi Kiron, thanks.
The difference between team and individual goals is important. Do you tell each team member that his individual goal is the same as the team goal or do you add or restrict it for them? Also, as team members normally have different capacities and roles, should the individual goal be different for everyone?
Thomas -

It's not that there aren't individual goals in agile teams, but we don't place those ahead of the team's goals. One would hope the two can be aligned - for example, gaining mastery over a particular technology may help the team deliver faster or with better quality.

Kiron
...
2 replies by Kiron Bondale and Thomas Walenta
Feb 21, 2019 6:50 AM
Thomas Walenta
...
Kiron, thanks.
If I understand you right, could I say that the team goals are rather product or value oriented while the individual goals are more to improve their value to the team?
Feb 21, 2019 7:34 AM
Kiron Bondale
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Definitely the former, but the latter would be just one subset of individual goals. We still want team members to achieve all of their personal goals but it is finding that healthy balance between what's best for the team and what's best for the individual.

For example, it might be best for the team if a long time member remains for perpetuity but that team member might wish to learn about a new product or service and want to join a different team at some point in time. To increase alignment between these goals of persistence of knowledge within the team and helping someone "leave the nest", the veteran might pair up with some junior team members over a period of time to transfer as much knowledge as possible so that the eventual transition goes smoothly.

Kiron
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