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Topics: Agile, IT Project Management, Quality
End To End Testing in Agile Scrum - IT Project Management
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I did not find much on this topic of doing End To End Testing in SAFe Agile environment. Can anyone share their experience if they have run across this challenge? I believe it is a given that individual Agile Trains are pretty silo'ed on what they do, therefore the experience I have so far on this is pretty painful. Any advice and suggestion is greatly appreciated.
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Kokhon -

I would suggest that end-to-end testing within sprints is expected by all agile methods and frameworks but limitations around testing environments, availability of testing staff, maturity of continuous testing practices and overall QC practices will impede this.

What this means is that we end up with Scrum-Fall - the Definition of Done represents a partially completed set of work items which need to go through further stages of testing to become a truly potentially shippable product increment.

Kiron
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In addition to the tests made by each teams is common the existence of a System Team that assists in building and support the development environment, typically including the management of the toolchain that support the continuous delivery pipeline.This team provides the integration of all parts from the other teams and performs the end to end solution testing when necessary, and assists with deployment and release on demand. I think without a centralized team to make the integration the Safe framework can generate unexpected integration errors.
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1 reply by Kokhon Chan
Aug 23, 2019 8:53 AM
Kokhon Chan
...
Thanks Alexandre-I think you're leading to something here. "This team provides the integration of all parts from the other teams and performs the end to end solution testing when necessary, and assists with deployment and release on demand. I think without a centralized team to make the integration the Safe framework can generate unexpected integration errors." Are you suggesting you have tried a team that sits over ALL scrum teams (A-Z), and this team managed integration of changes from each scrum team (from a single project/enhancement), performs E2E Testing, prior to rolling the codes to PROD?
Network:263



There has been a lot written about testing. What information are you looking for, specifically?

Scrum doesn't dictate exactly how you will test, because it's a framework that can be applied to many different types of products and problem solving. However, it does demand that each increment be thoroughly tested to ensure it works with previous increments. There are different ways to address this, including TDD or automated testing. Your team will have to experiment and find the best way to accomplish this, so that your product is adequately tested without overly impeding the team's progress. Even full regression testing, which you might be referring to, can be approached in various ways. Of note, though: Scrum recognizes no sub-teams, so if you're adhering to the Scrum framework, then your entire scrum team owns testing. You can't ship code over the wall and wait for someone else to test it.
...
1 reply by Kokhon Chan
Aug 23, 2019 8:45 AM
Kokhon Chan
...
Wade-thanks for your feedback. E2E Testing I help managed focused primarily on new/enhancement functionality, with minor focus on existing functions (that'd be regression). Since new feature could impact Applications A-Z (each owned by Scrum Teams A-Z), there isn't anyone I know of (in Agile world) that oversees the E2E Testing when all features are developed and integrated-correct? It isn't the individual scrum team's RTE, scrum master, nor project manager? "You can't ship code over the wall and wait for someone else to test it"--heaven forbid no. Finding all scrum teams to recognize importance of Integration testing and E2E Test is the challenge.
Network:101920



We struggled with this very topic on our project. More so, because we have multiple Scrum teams working on different products that are all integrated. (Lesson learned: Don't break up Scrum teams along product lines. Align teams to features.)

You have to find a way to build it into the stories and, thus, the sprint backlog. Otherwise, like Kiron said, your teams won't be delivering releasable content. It can be disconcerting not to do full regression testing as we used to.
...
1 reply by Kokhon Chan
Aug 23, 2019 8:36 AM
Kokhon Chan
...
These are exact scenarios I ran into over last 3 assignments. Scrum teams are setup based upon applications, and applications A-Z are integrated, BUT they each run their respective sprints, with code complete within 2-4 iterations of each other. (As PM we don't really have a say on what we walk into, and try to make the best of what we have, right?). So, for an End-To-End Testing to be conducted seamlessly, it required ALL the impacted apps to be unit/system tested, prior to E2E Testing to even begin. Individual application/scrum team, respective RTE/QA/Scrum Master are, admittedly pretty silo'ed. Being the PM overseeing these E2E Testing, I don't see us having power influencing all the multiple apps/scrum teams - do we? Question still being - what is/if anything, can be done to do it better?
Network:5



Aug 23, 2019 8:13 AM
Replying to Stéphane Parent
...
We struggled with this very topic on our project. More so, because we have multiple Scrum teams working on different products that are all integrated. (Lesson learned: Don't break up Scrum teams along product lines. Align teams to features.)

You have to find a way to build it into the stories and, thus, the sprint backlog. Otherwise, like Kiron said, your teams won't be delivering releasable content. It can be disconcerting not to do full regression testing as we used to.
These are exact scenarios I ran into over last 3 assignments. Scrum teams are setup based upon applications, and applications A-Z are integrated, BUT they each run their respective sprints, with code complete within 2-4 iterations of each other. (As PM we don't really have a say on what we walk into, and try to make the best of what we have, right?). So, for an End-To-End Testing to be conducted seamlessly, it required ALL the impacted apps to be unit/system tested, prior to E2E Testing to even begin. Individual application/scrum team, respective RTE/QA/Scrum Master are, admittedly pretty silo'ed. Being the PM overseeing these E2E Testing, I don't see us having power influencing all the multiple apps/scrum teams - do we? Question still being - what is/if anything, can be done to do it better?
Network:5



Aug 23, 2019 7:54 AM
Replying to Wade Harshman
...
There has been a lot written about testing. What information are you looking for, specifically?

Scrum doesn't dictate exactly how you will test, because it's a framework that can be applied to many different types of products and problem solving. However, it does demand that each increment be thoroughly tested to ensure it works with previous increments. There are different ways to address this, including TDD or automated testing. Your team will have to experiment and find the best way to accomplish this, so that your product is adequately tested without overly impeding the team's progress. Even full regression testing, which you might be referring to, can be approached in various ways. Of note, though: Scrum recognizes no sub-teams, so if you're adhering to the Scrum framework, then your entire scrum team owns testing. You can't ship code over the wall and wait for someone else to test it.
Wade-thanks for your feedback. E2E Testing I help managed focused primarily on new/enhancement functionality, with minor focus on existing functions (that'd be regression). Since new feature could impact Applications A-Z (each owned by Scrum Teams A-Z), there isn't anyone I know of (in Agile world) that oversees the E2E Testing when all features are developed and integrated-correct? It isn't the individual scrum team's RTE, scrum master, nor project manager? "You can't ship code over the wall and wait for someone else to test it"--heaven forbid no. Finding all scrum teams to recognize importance of Integration testing and E2E Test is the challenge.
Network:5



Aug 23, 2019 5:37 AM
Replying to Alexandre Costa
...
In addition to the tests made by each teams is common the existence of a System Team that assists in building and support the development environment, typically including the management of the toolchain that support the continuous delivery pipeline.This team provides the integration of all parts from the other teams and performs the end to end solution testing when necessary, and assists with deployment and release on demand. I think without a centralized team to make the integration the Safe framework can generate unexpected integration errors.
Thanks Alexandre-I think you're leading to something here. "This team provides the integration of all parts from the other teams and performs the end to end solution testing when necessary, and assists with deployment and release on demand. I think without a centralized team to make the integration the Safe framework can generate unexpected integration errors." Are you suggesting you have tried a team that sits over ALL scrum teams (A-Z), and this team managed integration of changes from each scrum team (from a single project/enhancement), performs E2E Testing, prior to rolling the codes to PROD?
...
1 reply by Alexandre Costa
Aug 23, 2019 9:48 AM
Alexandre Costa
...
I have to be honest with you, I never led an agile project on such large scale, however I know SAFE supports both Scrum and Devops and consequently the concept of a Systems Team. I already read about the subject. But based on the experience of Some of my colleagues, they are adopting this trend and according to them they have been able to implement end-to-end tests with some success.
I can only advise you to read the following site https://www.scaledagileframework.com/system-team/
I hope it helps you somehow.
Network:288



Aug 23, 2019 8:53 AM
Replying to Kokhon Chan
...
Thanks Alexandre-I think you're leading to something here. "This team provides the integration of all parts from the other teams and performs the end to end solution testing when necessary, and assists with deployment and release on demand. I think without a centralized team to make the integration the Safe framework can generate unexpected integration errors." Are you suggesting you have tried a team that sits over ALL scrum teams (A-Z), and this team managed integration of changes from each scrum team (from a single project/enhancement), performs E2E Testing, prior to rolling the codes to PROD?
I have to be honest with you, I never led an agile project on such large scale, however I know SAFE supports both Scrum and Devops and consequently the concept of a Systems Team. I already read about the subject. But based on the experience of Some of my colleagues, they are adopting this trend and according to them they have been able to implement end-to-end tests with some success.
I can only advise you to read the following site https://www.scaledagileframework.com/system-team/
I hope it helps you somehow.
...
1 reply by Kokhon Chan
Aug 23, 2019 10:01 AM
Kokhon Chan
...
Appreciated your input - anything helps. From what I gathered it seems to be uncharted territory, but I will keep looking into. Thanks again!
Network:5



Aug 23, 2019 9:48 AM
Replying to Alexandre Costa
...
I have to be honest with you, I never led an agile project on such large scale, however I know SAFE supports both Scrum and Devops and consequently the concept of a Systems Team. I already read about the subject. But based on the experience of Some of my colleagues, they are adopting this trend and according to them they have been able to implement end-to-end tests with some success.
I can only advise you to read the following site https://www.scaledagileframework.com/system-team/
I hope it helps you somehow.
Appreciated your input - anything helps. From what I gathered it seems to be uncharted territory, but I will keep looking into. Thanks again!
Network:410



Hi,
chapter 16 on quality in the book linked below gives some good guidance on end to end testing. In short propagating a few messages across the layers in first sprints may give enough confidence that the framework design is coherent and further development can continue.
succeeding with agile Mike cohen

http://bit.ly/2TWJYse

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