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Topics: Career Development, New Practitioners, Using PMI Standards
Rewriting PMP will decrease value of PMI-ACP and give rise CSM?
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Is there anyone concerned that completely rewriting PMP to include predictive, adaptive, and hybrid methods (which I think is a great idea) - will decrease value (or completely remove need for) PMI-ACP - AND - give rise to CSM while confusing HR and hiring managers on the value of PMP certification?
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Andrew -

I think there's still a distinction between a PM who has some knowledge of adaptive lifecycles and agile practices, and someone who has focused in that domain. In some respects, you could consider the agile component of PMP as being akin to the CAPM for agilists with the ACP being the next step up.

I also expect that the DA acquisition by PMI will eventually result in a shakeout of PMI's credentials with potential further depth/breadth added in the agile space (e.g. does the CDAP replace the ACP).

Kiron
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Is hard to say, nevertheless CSM is only a specialized subset of ACP, and in the other hand is not necessary to be PMP to evolve to ACP, and on other side PMP won't remove value to PMI-SP or PMI-RMP, so thinking by analogy maybe @Kiron could be right a PMI-ACP could be an extension or specialization of PMP. Never thought deeply on that , now that you ask I will reflect in the subject, it's really a good question.
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Let's see what will happen ... I'm very curious
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I had an experience that I can't quite resolve. I was teaching a Version 6 PMBOK guide class, and a significant portion of the group worked where Forklifts were built. They started with a charter, requirements --- all the way through testing and acceptance.

When I came to the Agile / Adaptive areas of the guide they were totally lost. I tried my best to relate agile techniques to building a new line of Forklifts - I think I *nearly* got the concepts across but not very well.

These are good project managers. They've been working in their discipline for years. They have a very successful company and happy customers. Clearly it was good for them to be exposed to an adaptive methodology, but it nags me that it never occurs in their workplace.

I'm looking for someone to sooth my feelings!
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1 reply by Andrew Soswa
Sep 17, 2019 4:54 PM
Andrew Soswa
...
Hi David,
As part of my studies, I will tackle that problem in my research. Mainly, there are some types of products/services that have higher rate of business value (completion success, customer satisfaction, process flow, on time/budget, etc) than others. You probably happen to discover that Agile does not really fare well to product that must be done sequentially AND for which is established blueprint/plan - i.e. building a building, or a server datacenter.

On the other hand, you have also mentioned that your PMs have a long-term experience completing projects but not in Agile/adaptive methodology. In my experience as a Coach, this was a huge factor if someone would 'get' Agile (understand that it is multi-layered philosophy, business process, project management methodology, or just a process -- depends on your position in the Change Management or project management lifecycle). Unfortunately, when explaining Agile, most long-term PMPs tried to convert all terms, processes, and even Agile philosophy to their predictive approach (aka waterfall methodology).
When I lead Agile teams, I let them know that they will be taught another philosophy/methodology/processes - and they will need to understand on a deep level what is waterfall and what is Agile, and at which level they are not anymore. So, in the end, they come out with knowing two different philosophy/methodology/processes really well, like thinking in two different systems, or having two different phones (Android and iPhone).
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First of all sorry if I did not understand your point. There is a problem in your question which unfortunatelly is create by the PMI itself in the past (if you read the new PMBOK carefully that was fixed partially). Predictive and adaptive are life cycle models. Based on that models you can find life cycle process like sequential, waterfall (for the first one) or iterative, incremental (for the second one). Based on the life cycle proces you can find methods like SDLC, V, XP, DSDM, etc. With that said, there is not collision with both certifications. The second thing is: PMI-ACP and CSM are totally different. The first one is a generalistic certification. The second one is related to a role inside a specific framework: Scrum. Is like my specific certification which is Agile Practitioner and Coach which is more related to DSDM. No matter that I have the PMI-ACP too.
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Sep 17, 2019 3:44 PM
Replying to David Maynard
...
I had an experience that I can't quite resolve. I was teaching a Version 6 PMBOK guide class, and a significant portion of the group worked where Forklifts were built. They started with a charter, requirements --- all the way through testing and acceptance.

When I came to the Agile / Adaptive areas of the guide they were totally lost. I tried my best to relate agile techniques to building a new line of Forklifts - I think I *nearly* got the concepts across but not very well.

These are good project managers. They've been working in their discipline for years. They have a very successful company and happy customers. Clearly it was good for them to be exposed to an adaptive methodology, but it nags me that it never occurs in their workplace.

I'm looking for someone to sooth my feelings!
Hi David,
As part of my studies, I will tackle that problem in my research. Mainly, there are some types of products/services that have higher rate of business value (completion success, customer satisfaction, process flow, on time/budget, etc) than others. You probably happen to discover that Agile does not really fare well to product that must be done sequentially AND for which is established blueprint/plan - i.e. building a building, or a server datacenter.

On the other hand, you have also mentioned that your PMs have a long-term experience completing projects but not in Agile/adaptive methodology. In my experience as a Coach, this was a huge factor if someone would 'get' Agile (understand that it is multi-layered philosophy, business process, project management methodology, or just a process -- depends on your position in the Change Management or project management lifecycle). Unfortunately, when explaining Agile, most long-term PMPs tried to convert all terms, processes, and even Agile philosophy to their predictive approach (aka waterfall methodology).
When I lead Agile teams, I let them know that they will be taught another philosophy/methodology/processes - and they will need to understand on a deep level what is waterfall and what is Agile, and at which level they are not anymore. So, in the end, they come out with knowing two different philosophy/methodology/processes really well, like thinking in two different systems, or having two different phones (Android and iPhone).
...
1 reply by David Maynard
Sep 17, 2019 6:28 PM
David Maynard
...
Hi Andrew, thank you for your comment.

This issue caused some quite a bit strain in the class. There were software developers that were pursuing their PMP and a group of (very nice folks) that had worked all of their career building forklifts to exacting specifications. So, half the class could easily understand agile methods, but the other half simply couldn't see how you could design / test / deliver a production product that way. It really lengthened the class and (much to the dismay of the university) I elected to hold some Saturday sessions to try to get everyone on the same level of understanding.

The bottom line is that (if I were honest and didn't hold class off-campus) the course would have taken about 3 or 4 weeks longer than it did with version 5.

Clearly this is the direction we, PMI and the body of practitioners have chosen to go in. It just REALLY makes a Project Management class harder to teach with a mixed group of students. Some students were very confused --- the software folks with the waterfall talk and the forklift folks with agile approaches. AND! They really can't be split up since both are important for the exam.
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Yes, I think Sergio has a good point on the ACP vs. CSM.

If PMI is rewriting the PMP exam to include other Project Management, I just hope the PMBOK is very clear on delineating the various approaches (such as TPM, APM, HPM, etc.) and characteristics that are associated with each of the approaches. I would welcome that, indeed, in the Book of Knowledge.

Additionally, I would not expect such a rewrite to cannibalize PMI-ACP certifications less PMI increases the attention to Agile in the PMBOK from 600 to a 1000 pages.

BTW, currently the GROWTH in those certified in ACP vs. PMP is significantly higher. But this makes sense as ACP is 'relatively' new compared to PMP.
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Sep 17, 2019 4:54 PM
Replying to Andrew Soswa
...
Hi David,
As part of my studies, I will tackle that problem in my research. Mainly, there are some types of products/services that have higher rate of business value (completion success, customer satisfaction, process flow, on time/budget, etc) than others. You probably happen to discover that Agile does not really fare well to product that must be done sequentially AND for which is established blueprint/plan - i.e. building a building, or a server datacenter.

On the other hand, you have also mentioned that your PMs have a long-term experience completing projects but not in Agile/adaptive methodology. In my experience as a Coach, this was a huge factor if someone would 'get' Agile (understand that it is multi-layered philosophy, business process, project management methodology, or just a process -- depends on your position in the Change Management or project management lifecycle). Unfortunately, when explaining Agile, most long-term PMPs tried to convert all terms, processes, and even Agile philosophy to their predictive approach (aka waterfall methodology).
When I lead Agile teams, I let them know that they will be taught another philosophy/methodology/processes - and they will need to understand on a deep level what is waterfall and what is Agile, and at which level they are not anymore. So, in the end, they come out with knowing two different philosophy/methodology/processes really well, like thinking in two different systems, or having two different phones (Android and iPhone).
Hi Andrew, thank you for your comment.

This issue caused some quite a bit strain in the class. There were software developers that were pursuing their PMP and a group of (very nice folks) that had worked all of their career building forklifts to exacting specifications. So, half the class could easily understand agile methods, but the other half simply couldn't see how you could design / test / deliver a production product that way. It really lengthened the class and (much to the dismay of the university) I elected to hold some Saturday sessions to try to get everyone on the same level of understanding.

The bottom line is that (if I were honest and didn't hold class off-campus) the course would have taken about 3 or 4 weeks longer than it did with version 5.

Clearly this is the direction we, PMI and the body of practitioners have chosen to go in. It just REALLY makes a Project Management class harder to teach with a mixed group of students. Some students were very confused --- the software folks with the waterfall talk and the forklift folks with agile approaches. AND! They really can't be split up since both are important for the exam.
...
2 replies by Andrew Soswa and Wade Harshman
Sep 18, 2019 2:00 PM
Wade Harshman
...
David, I think you raise valid concerns.

Ideally, it'd be nice to think that someone who holds the PMP understands the difference between predictive and adaptive life cycles. Frankly, we know this is not the case. PMI has dominated project management in predictive life cycles, but did a poor job with adaptive life cycles and has been struggling to catch up. Even if it's necessary, it almost seems unfair to suddenly expect new project managers to have some base competency in adaptive life cycles when so many experienced PMP holders have no similar experience.

I'm not offering solutions, I simply agree that you've found a difficulty that should be addressed. The PMP is so highly regarded that we need to be cautious about changing it. I hope someone at PMI finds a good solution to this.
Sep 18, 2019 5:29 PM
Andrew Soswa
...
David, you hit the bullseye of the problem!
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If re-writing the PMBoK would include a completely different taxonomy to integrate those lifecycles, I could see that as problematic. An infinite number of taxonomies are possible, but some logical organizations of subject matter are easier to comprehend and manage than others. Some things fit nicely into certain groups, and others end up fractured and distributed among many groups.

As for the subject of people who don't "get" agile, I can completely relate. I come from a manufacturing industry where some parts have a several year lead time. There are aspects of a long predictive lifecycle necessary to make those projects succeed.

On the other hand, I've worked green field development, product improvement, cost reduction, problem resolution, process development, and a variety of other aspects of large programs where the agile concepts are very well suited. I can think of quite a few agile approaches I have used or seen over the years on mega-projects. Nobody called them agile, and everyone seemed to "get it" when we just explained how we were going to approach the solution to particular problems in a novel way.
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1 reply by Andrew Soswa
Sep 18, 2019 5:37 PM
Andrew Soswa
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That would be a great question for someone who currently works on the next v7 and will eventually write a PMP v7 training book @mikegriffiths at https://www.projectmanagement.com/profile/mikegriffiths
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@James, I started this thread b/c I read "NEW PMP ® Exam Content Outline – PMI" and it totally uproots my understanding what will happen to all the PMI certifications (or at least to PMP and PMI-ACP) and their stance against CSM and others.
I don't know if you read this document, but it is germane to this discussion.
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