Dinah YoungProject Manager / Software Asset Manager| Prince William CountySpringfield, Va, United States
I have always been told to be humble, to not speak too much, to not be aggressive. I was wondering if this is a phenomenon related to women or if men have been told similar thing.
We are project managers. We need to market ourselves, our team, our product, our skills.
Let me step up on my soap box for a minute: Being humble has no place in my world. I am who I am and I will not pretend to be less to boost someone else's self esteem.
Off soap box.
So, back to my original question, do men face this same type of criticism? Are you criticized for promoting your skills? Are you accused of being aggressive when you are trying to assert yourselves? Saving Changes...
Dinah, that's really a good discussion, what we really need to start with is to identify what meant by been humble, so first of all I don't agree with the definition of humble as been addressed as low self esteem or little or negligible, if we are taking the word as opposite to arrogant then it should n't mean trivial rather it is the only great noble people who treat lower people in rank with full respect as human being, if a rich person not arrogant and treat poor person with same respect and we say he is a humble man that doesn't mean he has low self esteem, if someone like a king with all dignity, lordliness reverence gravity treat a farmer with respect and sit down and eat with him that doesn't mean he has low self esteem.
So I don't see any thing wrong with you trying to market your self and the kind of good action treating people fairly and been humble has no gender so we do face same criticism.
I have to run for a meeting Saving Changes...
Dinah YoungProject Manager / Software Asset Manager| Prince William CountySpringfield, Va, United States
ADJECTIVE
1.having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.
synonyms: meek · deferential · respectful · submissive · self-effacing · unassertive ·
2.of low social, administrative, or political rank.
synonyms: low-ranking · low · lowly · lower-class · plebeian · proletarian ·
3.(of a thing) of modest pretensions or dimensions.
synonyms: unpretentious · modest · unostentatious · plain · simple · ordinary
I can guarantee that there are gender perception biases related to self-promotion along with almost any other behavior, and the challenge is that once you have faced some negative feedback, will you be as willing to try again even though the context and company might be totally different?
I've never experienced any criticism for self-promotion other than from my wife who helps to keep me grounded but I don't go overboard either with "selling" myself.
Thankfully, I've had the privilege to work for a number of companies which tried to be as fair and egalitarian as possible but earlier in my career I did witness a few situations where there was clearly a different standard on self-promotion between the women who worked for the company and the men.
Being a visible minority, I grew up receiving the advice from my Dad about this in the context of race - I chose to ignore his (dated) advice and am thankful I did so as I've never experienced any type of race-driven double standard in the work place.
Kiron
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1 reply by Dinah Young
May 23, 2018 11:21 AM
Dinah Young
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Nothing stops me :) I sometimes change tactics, but I forge ahead. It has stopped me from getting certain jobs, but if they want something that I am not for that job then it is probably for the best that I did not get it.
But sadly, some of the strongest criticism I have received is from my female managers. It may because they are a bit older and were brought up in this culture of woman must not come off as aggressive.
On the other hand, I have had some great companies that did not see gender, race, culture, etc.
Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
Anyone that states we (male or female) should change from who we are have no business doing so. We are professionals. It is our (or should be) our responsibility to ourselves to market and create a brand around ourselves. This is not about aggression or arrogance, it is about highlighting skills, experiences, and educated comments/opinions based on the dedication and hard work we've put into our career - and sometimes it is not only expected but the right thing to do.
As a male, yes, it can be taken as being a 'show-off', kiss-a**, or aggressive (depending on one's approach).
Obviously, approach is an important aspect of the discussion - not what's said, but how it's said. Saving Changes...
Dinah YoungProject Manager / Software Asset Manager| Prince William CountySpringfield, Va, United States
May 23, 2018 11:02 AM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Dinah -
I can guarantee that there are gender perception biases related to self-promotion along with almost any other behavior, and the challenge is that once you have faced some negative feedback, will you be as willing to try again even though the context and company might be totally different?
I've never experienced any criticism for self-promotion other than from my wife who helps to keep me grounded but I don't go overboard either with "selling" myself.
Thankfully, I've had the privilege to work for a number of companies which tried to be as fair and egalitarian as possible but earlier in my career I did witness a few situations where there was clearly a different standard on self-promotion between the women who worked for the company and the men.
Being a visible minority, I grew up receiving the advice from my Dad about this in the context of race - I chose to ignore his (dated) advice and am thankful I did so as I've never experienced any type of race-driven double standard in the work place.
Kiron
Nothing stops me :) I sometimes change tactics, but I forge ahead. It has stopped me from getting certain jobs, but if they want something that I am not for that job then it is probably for the best that I did not get it.
But sadly, some of the strongest criticism I have received is from my female managers. It may because they are a bit older and were brought up in this culture of woman must not come off as aggressive.
On the other hand, I have had some great companies that did not see gender, race, culture, etc. Saving Changes...
Eric SimmsSenior Program ManagerBaltimore, Maryland, United States
Excellent topic! I was thinking of this recently.
In my experience men have the opposite experience you describe. Men are allowed and even expected to be aggressive when it comes to self-promotion to improve their careers. Men who act humble, don’t speak much and aren’t aggressive in the workplace are seen as ineffective and weak, and will nearly always earn the contempt of their bosses and colleagues – both male and female.
So, why are women told to do these things? You already know the answer: It’s a way for men to keep women in subservient positions. It is so effective because humility, quietness, being liked by others, etc. have long been associated with femininity, and from the day they are born women are directly and indirectly taught that nothing is worse than being perceived as unfeminine. Just look at all the TV shows and movies through the years that have depicted assertive women as strident harridans and troublemakers – bad people whose behavior should be avoided. When we consider that suffragettes a century ago were accused of being unfeminine for asking for the right to vote, we can see how men use the concept of femininity to control and manipulate women.
In the modern workplace femininity creates an emotional barrier that stops women from doing the things required to advance professionally. For example, women won’t promote themselves because they believe doing so would mean they lack humility, and they rarely complain due to their desire to be liked, and so forth. Most of the time men don’t need to say a word, for femininity’s strictures are powerful enough to keep women in place. However, if a woman begins to push past those barriers, men will explicitly mention the need to be humble, non-aggressive, etc. in an attempt to trigger a woman’s doubt so femininity can reassert its control over the woman. As a compromise, most women tell themselves if they quietly work hard their efforts will eventually be rewarded. This almost never happens. While the women are doing the work they make their male bosses look good, which leads to the boss’ promotion. Instead of the woman being promoted into their boss’ former job, another male is given the position. If the woman complains about being passed up for promotion, she’s told that she never displayed the assertiveness and drive required in a leader.
The concepts of femininity aren’t inherently wrong or bad, but they are often used to restrict women in the workplace. Unless a woman is working in a meritocratic organization, she needs to discard or redefine her concept of femininity in a way that enables her to grow to her full potential.
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1 reply by Dinah Young
May 23, 2018 8:20 PM
Dinah Young
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This is how I was perceiving it but wanted to see if my perception was skewed or not. Thank you for your input.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dinah,
My answer is YES. I do face the same exact comments: Don't be too aggressive, Try to listen before getting deffensive, and so on.
I believe there is no difference when it comes to marketing ourselves.
Something off topic: We have been looking for a long time to hire a Project Manager (Woman) to join our team but we could not find any who are interested in being a Project Management Consultant for Building Construction & Development. Many people wonder why we are all guys and some jump into conclusions but in reality, the effort is there but we can't find any.
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1 reply by Eric Simms
May 23, 2018 2:11 PM
Eric Simms
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I wonder if the reason women don't enter certain fields is that they suspect they'll have to deal with a lot of misogyny in those fields, that they'll be the only woman in the workplace, or both. I can definitely see Construction as a field women might want to avoid for these reasons.
Saving Changes...
Eric SimmsSenior Program ManagerBaltimore, Maryland, United States
May 23, 2018 1:05 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Dinah,
My answer is YES. I do face the same exact comments: Don't be too aggressive, Try to listen before getting deffensive, and so on.
I believe there is no difference when it comes to marketing ourselves.
Something off topic: We have been looking for a long time to hire a Project Manager (Woman) to join our team but we could not find any who are interested in being a Project Management Consultant for Building Construction & Development. Many people wonder why we are all guys and some jump into conclusions but in reality, the effort is there but we can't find any.
I wonder if the reason women don't enter certain fields is that they suspect they'll have to deal with a lot of misogyny in those fields, that they'll be the only woman in the workplace, or both. I can definitely see Construction as a field women might want to avoid for these reasons.
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1 reply by Dinah Young
May 23, 2018 8:24 PM
Dinah Young
...
It may be less to do with the expected misogyny and more with the fact that they will be the only woman there and will feel they have no one "on their side".
And there may be less encouragement for women to enter this field.
From my point of view there is also a cultural factor that will affect the answer. Saving Changes...
Dinah YoungProject Manager / Software Asset Manager| Prince William CountySpringfield, Va, United States
May 23, 2018 11:24 AM
Replying to Eric Simms
...
Excellent topic! I was thinking of this recently.
In my experience men have the opposite experience you describe. Men are allowed and even expected to be aggressive when it comes to self-promotion to improve their careers. Men who act humble, don’t speak much and aren’t aggressive in the workplace are seen as ineffective and weak, and will nearly always earn the contempt of their bosses and colleagues – both male and female.
So, why are women told to do these things? You already know the answer: It’s a way for men to keep women in subservient positions. It is so effective because humility, quietness, being liked by others, etc. have long been associated with femininity, and from the day they are born women are directly and indirectly taught that nothing is worse than being perceived as unfeminine. Just look at all the TV shows and movies through the years that have depicted assertive women as strident harridans and troublemakers – bad people whose behavior should be avoided. When we consider that suffragettes a century ago were accused of being unfeminine for asking for the right to vote, we can see how men use the concept of femininity to control and manipulate women.
In the modern workplace femininity creates an emotional barrier that stops women from doing the things required to advance professionally. For example, women won’t promote themselves because they believe doing so would mean they lack humility, and they rarely complain due to their desire to be liked, and so forth. Most of the time men don’t need to say a word, for femininity’s strictures are powerful enough to keep women in place. However, if a woman begins to push past those barriers, men will explicitly mention the need to be humble, non-aggressive, etc. in an attempt to trigger a woman’s doubt so femininity can reassert its control over the woman. As a compromise, most women tell themselves if they quietly work hard their efforts will eventually be rewarded. This almost never happens. While the women are doing the work they make their male bosses look good, which leads to the boss’ promotion. Instead of the woman being promoted into their boss’ former job, another male is given the position. If the woman complains about being passed up for promotion, she’s told that she never displayed the assertiveness and drive required in a leader.
The concepts of femininity aren’t inherently wrong or bad, but they are often used to restrict women in the workplace. Unless a woman is working in a meritocratic organization, she needs to discard or redefine her concept of femininity in a way that enables her to grow to her full potential.
This is how I was perceiving it but wanted to see if my perception was skewed or not. Thank you for your input.
...
1 reply by Eric Simms
May 23, 2018 8:54 PM
Eric Simms
...
My pleasure, Dinah.
As a black man I have long experienced subtle attempts to deflect me from upward mobility. Once I saw them for what they were I barreled forward toward success, and I have taken great joy watching the consternation my growth causes those who would oppose it. It’s fun to do exemplary work and watch these individuals inwardly fume because I leave them nothing to criticize.
I have long believed that women should claw their way to the top so they can show the young women and girls coming behind that they are no longer limited. I look forward to hearing tales of your growth and successes.
"Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining."