It’s been awhile since doing any type of job search and yesterday I decided to look up Jr. PM and project coordinator positions.
I decided not to refine filter and just get an idea of the market demands for the whole state. After bringing up 7 ads for “entry level” with the above titles- I was a bit taken back by the qualifications.
Entry level...
All of them required a bachelors degree, subject knowledge experience, and 3+ years PM experience minimum to even be considered. CAPM and PMP was “preferred” not necessary.
How does the above even pass for entry level? Entry level to me is 0-2 years experience - will train right candidate at the very most.
This makes me feel a bit uneasy as I continue to study for my CAPM knowing that I may have to venture out of my field to a brand new application if that’s what needs to be done to move forward. I do not have those qualifications and if they expect at entry level minimum of 3 years experience, how do they expect people to get experience? Volunteer for that duration?
For the most part a CAPM probably wouldn’t help me much in the freight forwarding world. It’s tough to find a PM role that is defined by what PMI reflects as PM knowledge and skills.
Thoughts? I’m chasing this certification because I see value in it, but I forecast it may not be such a smooth transition or really just have no idea what, if any opportunities will arise. Saving Changes...
Joshua RenderProduct Owner| CognizantHarrisville, Ny, United States
It's that way for everything, has been for a few years.
Employers (HR) don't want to have to do anything. They want the workers to come in, already being experts and they don't want to pay expert rates. So they label entry level jobs what might be called mid-level jobs by any other person, but certainly not entry level by any other sane person in existence.
Also, get used to purple squirrels. A lot of jobs now are ultra precise. "Need a project manager with 3 years of (insert vague application, software language, platform here) experience." Put it under required and wait for months until they actually find someone who even knows what it was they wanted.
I learn more tech acronyms, programming language names, and application names trolling through the job ads on Dice or Indeed then I ever did in school or work.
Sometimes I like to apply to those jobs just for spite. I like to imagine that no one applies to those jobs, and then suddenly I applied and wasted their time by having them read my resume. Saving Changes...
I once saw an entry-level job listing (not for a PM, but for something else) that required 13 years of experience doing that specific thing, using their specific software. How precise is 13 years? How is 13 years of experience considered entry level? Obviously wired for a known candidate. Why even list it?
Good luck.
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1 reply by Joshua Render
Jun 15, 2018 1:46 PM
Joshua Render
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I once saw a job that wanted 10 years of Angular JS experience. This was in 2014 when AngularJS creation had only started in 2008 and wasn't publically released until 2009. Not directly related to this, but it makes me laugh when I think about it.
Saving Changes...
Joshua RenderProduct Owner| CognizantHarrisville, Ny, United States
Jun 15, 2018 1:37 PM
Replying to Michele Valentine
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I once saw an entry-level job listing (not for a PM, but for something else) that required 13 years of experience doing that specific thing, using their specific software. How precise is 13 years? How is 13 years of experience considered entry level? Obviously wired for a known candidate. Why even list it?
Good luck.
I once saw a job that wanted 10 years of Angular JS experience. This was in 2014 when AngularJS creation had only started in 2008 and wasn't publically released until 2009. Not directly related to this, but it makes me laugh when I think about it. Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
Unfortunately, many of these requisition write-ups are a jumbled mix of copy/paste criteria from someone' outside the know' for the role. Saving Changes...
Josh you definitely made me chuckle with your response.
So I guess my next question is that it seems they ask for the impossible and the listing is not so accurate as they expect much more. . .
Being in freight forwarding and logistics, am I wasting my time even bothering to get this certification and if so - what should my next move be?
My experience has been, you move to a new company, they promise you growth, you start at a slightly higher salary or one that you'll accept, and then you're stuck not moving up in any capacity.
11 years experience with knowledge from nearly every area operationally and trying to move up has been an uphill battle. Quite frustrating to say the least.
Not getting any younger and something has to give. I also feel at the same time that now since starting this journey with my studies, I would like to see it through regardless. I don't like to not finish what I start, but am looking to make proper decisions that will give me the best ROI for my efforts and time.
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1 reply by Joshua Render
Jun 15, 2018 4:52 PM
Joshua Render
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I don't think you are wasting your time.
I think it just makes it all that much harder to find the right job, but you can still do it. Patience and perseverance.
It is frustrating. I think it is why there are a lot of people, in technology especially, who have a lot more jobs in their history than average. They get promised the world in a new job and get shoved in a totally different direction then they wanted or intended. The only way to fight back is to job hop sometimes.
I went to college 10 years after I left high school. I had a lot of experience, and a lot of it is useful to me now. I rarely get credit for it when applying for jobs. I had one person a couple of weeks ago tell me through email, without even talking to me, that I needed more hands-development experience for a job. I emailed back asking for some clarification because I was confused. He never talked to me, and my resume lists that I have had hands-on programming experience. Even sent in a letter dating it back 10 years.
Turns out, he was looking at when I got my Master's degree in 2015 and concluded that I must only have 3 years of experience total. I sent him a detailed list of my programming experience and told him I wasn't interested in the job anymore.
I worked full-time while I went to college. In 2015 I was 35 years old and had worked since I was 16, with at least half of that experience involved in some sort of programming, all before I completed my graduate degree. Had he actually read the information I provided, it should have at least made it clear that my work history goes back before my college.
Saving Changes...
Joshua RenderProduct Owner| CognizantHarrisville, Ny, United States
Jun 15, 2018 3:15 PM
Replying to Michael Brian
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Josh you definitely made me chuckle with your response.
So I guess my next question is that it seems they ask for the impossible and the listing is not so accurate as they expect much more. . .
Being in freight forwarding and logistics, am I wasting my time even bothering to get this certification and if so - what should my next move be?
My experience has been, you move to a new company, they promise you growth, you start at a slightly higher salary or one that you'll accept, and then you're stuck not moving up in any capacity.
11 years experience with knowledge from nearly every area operationally and trying to move up has been an uphill battle. Quite frustrating to say the least.
Not getting any younger and something has to give. I also feel at the same time that now since starting this journey with my studies, I would like to see it through regardless. I don't like to not finish what I start, but am looking to make proper decisions that will give me the best ROI for my efforts and time.
I don't think you are wasting your time.
I think it just makes it all that much harder to find the right job, but you can still do it. Patience and perseverance.
It is frustrating. I think it is why there are a lot of people, in technology especially, who have a lot more jobs in their history than average. They get promised the world in a new job and get shoved in a totally different direction then they wanted or intended. The only way to fight back is to job hop sometimes.
I went to college 10 years after I left high school. I had a lot of experience, and a lot of it is useful to me now. I rarely get credit for it when applying for jobs. I had one person a couple of weeks ago tell me through email, without even talking to me, that I needed more hands-development experience for a job. I emailed back asking for some clarification because I was confused. He never talked to me, and my resume lists that I have had hands-on programming experience. Even sent in a letter dating it back 10 years.
Turns out, he was looking at when I got my Master's degree in 2015 and concluded that I must only have 3 years of experience total. I sent him a detailed list of my programming experience and told him I wasn't interested in the job anymore.
I worked full-time while I went to college. In 2015 I was 35 years old and had worked since I was 16, with at least half of that experience involved in some sort of programming, all before I completed my graduate degree. Had he actually read the information I provided, it should have at least made it clear that my work history goes back before my college. Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
I had a PM interview. Phone conversation was great. In person interview was great. Interview with HR was great. And although I had technical conversations with the hiring manager during the phone interview (the in person was more PM and ‘get to know you’ based) he deemed I was not technical enough. Mind you, no technical questions whatsoever. That is expected right, it’s a PM role. Also, I am a Linux hobbyist and contributor, and have severally Microsoft certs including MCSA And SQL Server. I also was a SQL Debeloper and Freelance Web Developer.
Anyway. Just goes to show you. And honestly, knowing what I know now, I’m glad they were clueless. I’m not looking to be part of a company like that. Saving Changes...
From all you said Michael, the CAPM sounds like the perfect certification option for you. Yes many volunteer, but don't discount the freight-forwarding business as a good option for gaining experience in project management. There will be many projects in your organization trust me, so you just need to somehow get involved or put your hand up to get involved in one or more of them. That will give you experience as you complete the CAPM certification. Saving Changes...
That definitely helps shed some light towards the end of the tunnel. I once held a PM role (with sales) at a freight forwarding company for the trade show division. It was much different from being more hands on operationally, mainly just monitoring and controlling, but of course meeting the logistics needs of what the customer wanted (scope).
The company I am with now, we are a very small office. One person per department, so very little room to move up in any direction or capacity (including salary). As I'm learning, I try to implement or at least practice the thought process in relation to whatever I can here with PM knowledge. Actually yesterday I created a WBS and a WBS dictionary based on the operational needs for the warehouse and presented it to my direct manager. He hasn't had a chance to look at it, but figured I'd try to show some additional talent in that aspect.
When I first started my career in this field, it took me 3 months from being green to promote up to supervisor. In that respects I always bounce ideas and unofficially play my role as if I were a manager.
So right now my initial plan is to remain patient and get certified. Then see what it can open up for me. Salary is the biggest issue for me right now. But I enjoy what I'm learning and it has become a routine now - so I don't plan to stop until I complete the exam.
What roles within freight forwarding do you feel PM skills could step up to?
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1 reply by Sante Delle-Vergini, PhD
Jun 15, 2018 8:35 PM
Sante Delle-Vergini, PhD
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The roles that require PM skills would depend on the size of the business. Large logistics companies have project management requirements within HR (ie. training, change transformations), IT (ie. hardware/software upgrades, cloud solutions, enterprise networking, infrastructure upgrades), which can expand out of the office and onto the ground with technologies such as IoT, enterprise mobility and POS terminals. There are other business projects such as office setups, relocations, market research, strategic launches etc. All these require project management of some kind or another.
That definitely helps shed some light towards the end of the tunnel. I once held a PM role (with sales) at a freight forwarding company for the trade show division. It was much different from being more hands on operationally, mainly just monitoring and controlling, but of course meeting the logistics needs of what the customer wanted (scope).
The company I am with now, we are a very small office. One person per department, so very little room to move up in any direction or capacity (including salary). As I'm learning, I try to implement or at least practice the thought process in relation to whatever I can here with PM knowledge. Actually yesterday I created a WBS and a WBS dictionary based on the operational needs for the warehouse and presented it to my direct manager. He hasn't had a chance to look at it, but figured I'd try to show some additional talent in that aspect.
When I first started my career in this field, it took me 3 months from being green to promote up to supervisor. In that respects I always bounce ideas and unofficially play my role as if I were a manager.
So right now my initial plan is to remain patient and get certified. Then see what it can open up for me. Salary is the biggest issue for me right now. But I enjoy what I'm learning and it has become a routine now - so I don't plan to stop until I complete the exam.
What roles within freight forwarding do you feel PM skills could step up to?
The roles that require PM skills would depend on the size of the business. Large logistics companies have project management requirements within HR (ie. training, change transformations), IT (ie. hardware/software upgrades, cloud solutions, enterprise networking, infrastructure upgrades), which can expand out of the office and onto the ground with technologies such as IoT, enterprise mobility and POS terminals. There are other business projects such as office setups, relocations, market research, strategic launches etc. All these require project management of some kind or another.
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1 reply by Michael Brian
Jun 16, 2018 10:56 AM
Michael Brian
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Good to know. My company does a whole lot of projects and there are logistics coordinators running them, but they are out of our bigger stations in other states.
My station is very small (roughly 10 employees max). Not so many project based work going on. We do however have a project coming up that has a specific time frame of when the merchandise has to PU and move out. It involves about 60 + shipments to move nationwide within a few weeks period.
