Frank SpiegelSenior Projectmanager, PMP, PMI-ACP| Commerzbank AGOberursel, Germany
I know we are here in a project manager organization and proud of our role.
The Scrum Guide has exactly 3 roles: Product Owner, Scrum Master and Development Team. There is no talk of project managers.
I've heard from lecturers that a project manager is still needed. However, I have not received any details so far.
How should the interaction with the other 3 roles work? Are not conflicts then pre-programmed, if then 3 roles try to control with different focus?
Or does the development team act as the project leader, i. e. is part of the self-controlling function of the team?
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
@Anton "It's about what you do, not what you are called." Spotify, Google, and other Agile organisations still have the CEO title, because that person does what a CEO does.
if you manage a project then you should be called Project Manager. The title (Master) was very carefully crafted ,one reason being to avoid the perception that it is the new Project Manager. Saving Changes...
Md Al-aminSenior System Analyst| Thakral Information Systems Private LimitedDhaka, Dhaka, Bangladesh
It depends on Organization process.
1. Scrum Master is not a Project Manager. Each carry different roles
2. Scrum Master may report to a Project Manager but not vice versa
Scrum master facilitates the team and helps remove impediments of the team whereas the project manager actively tracks and manages the project and unblocks any roadblocks that may occur in a team. PM is more directional whereas SM is a facilitator
So depending on the project complexity and size you may need a PM above a SM. Saving Changes...
Frank SpiegelSenior Projectmanager, PMP, PMI-ACP| Commerzbank AGOberursel, Germany
Thank you for your dedicated discussion so far. You bring a broad perspective.
I've learned that you have to make a clear distinction between marketing (Super Scrum Master, ...) and content-based concepts (documented in Scrum Guide and PMBOK for instance).
The discussion shows me that it is import to look more into the PM functionality, as they are e.g. represented by the different PMBOK knowledge areas. Some of this functionality can be found distruted in the roles according to the SCRUM guide, but some functionality, like procurement management, is not adressed there.
If a project consists of several Scrum teams, there is an overarching need for coordination. Here, the project manager could come into play again.
Hence I understand and agree that the starting point for the answer to my question shall be the PM functionalities and not the role. The next step is to consider the roles on which these functionalities are distributed and what the interplay of these roles is. Does this make sense?
...
2 replies by Peter Ambrosy and Sergio Luis Conte
Feb 19, 2019 1:51 AM
Peter Ambrosy
...
Yes, it does. If you consider the different levels of a project (directing, managing and delivering), ths scrum master role is on the delivery level supporting the team to stick to agile principles, practises and values when doing the work to deliver the product. The project manager functions relate more to the manage and directing level as pointed out in the many comments above. From my point of view there is no contradiction as both roles support each other.
Feb 19, 2019 4:15 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
...
Let me give an example of my actual work place. I am in charge to define all related to methods/process/tools my actual work place use at enterprise level. We have five different ways to do things (methods) where some are based on agile (we use Scrum framework for example) and some not based on agile. The same person is assigned to more than one intiative at the same time using agile and non-agile based approaches at the same time. At company level the role name is project/program/portfolio manager. What I tried to say is the important thing is to clear understand the duties each person has into each initiative no matter in some of them she/he can perform as project manager and in others can perform as Scrum Master. Obviouly, each person has the required skills to perform the role.
Thank you for your dedicated discussion so far. You bring a broad perspective.
I've learned that you have to make a clear distinction between marketing (Super Scrum Master, ...) and content-based concepts (documented in Scrum Guide and PMBOK for instance).
The discussion shows me that it is import to look more into the PM functionality, as they are e.g. represented by the different PMBOK knowledge areas. Some of this functionality can be found distruted in the roles according to the SCRUM guide, but some functionality, like procurement management, is not adressed there.
If a project consists of several Scrum teams, there is an overarching need for coordination. Here, the project manager could come into play again.
Hence I understand and agree that the starting point for the answer to my question shall be the PM functionalities and not the role. The next step is to consider the roles on which these functionalities are distributed and what the interplay of these roles is. Does this make sense?
Yes, it does. If you consider the different levels of a project (directing, managing and delivering), ths scrum master role is on the delivery level supporting the team to stick to agile principles, practises and values when doing the work to deliver the product. The project manager functions relate more to the manage and directing level as pointed out in the many comments above. From my point of view there is no contradiction as both roles support each other. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Feb 19, 2019 1:27 AM
Replying to Frank Spiegel
...
Thank you for your dedicated discussion so far. You bring a broad perspective.
I've learned that you have to make a clear distinction between marketing (Super Scrum Master, ...) and content-based concepts (documented in Scrum Guide and PMBOK for instance).
The discussion shows me that it is import to look more into the PM functionality, as they are e.g. represented by the different PMBOK knowledge areas. Some of this functionality can be found distruted in the roles according to the SCRUM guide, but some functionality, like procurement management, is not adressed there.
If a project consists of several Scrum teams, there is an overarching need for coordination. Here, the project manager could come into play again.
Hence I understand and agree that the starting point for the answer to my question shall be the PM functionalities and not the role. The next step is to consider the roles on which these functionalities are distributed and what the interplay of these roles is. Does this make sense?
Let me give an example of my actual work place. I am in charge to define all related to methods/process/tools my actual work place use at enterprise level. We have five different ways to do things (methods) where some are based on agile (we use Scrum framework for example) and some not based on agile. The same person is assigned to more than one intiative at the same time using agile and non-agile based approaches at the same time. At company level the role name is project/program/portfolio manager. What I tried to say is the important thing is to clear understand the duties each person has into each initiative no matter in some of them she/he can perform as project manager and in others can perform as Scrum Master. Obviouly, each person has the required skills to perform the role. Saving Changes...
Frank SpiegelSenior Projectmanager, PMP, PMI-ACP| Commerzbank AGOberursel, Germany
The background of my question was that I know of an organization that abolishes the role of project leader by introducing agile ways of working. The so-called cluster delivery organizations (each about 150 people) have a cluster lead, which is comparable to a program manager. Otherwise there are only teams with Product Owner, Scrum Master and development team members in this kind of organization. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
@Frank, good to know. I've seen this approach but they kept the PMs to manage budget and provide governance. Who is managing the budget for 150 people? Do you use vendors/contractors or only permanent employees? Saving Changes...
Frank SpiegelSenior Projectmanager, PMP, PMI-ACP| Commerzbank AGOberursel, Germany
@ Stelian, there will be a kind of PMO within the delivery cluster, which also organize planning meetings, etc., but also manage procurement and budget. Saving Changes...
