Forum related question : Why do we talk about Scrum on a Project Manager board?
Wade HarshmanScrum Master| GDITIndianapolis, In, United States
Any time I check this Project Management Central board, there are at least 3 - 4 questions on the front page relating to Scrum, and often specific to the role of scrum masters.
Given the general consensus that Scrum Masters are not Project Managers, why does the topic get so much attention on a forum dedicated to project management?
(This is not a criticism, just an observation. I suspect we're influenced by factors beyond the typical users of this board, but I'm curious how all of you perceive this question.) Saving Changes...
Wade HarshmanScrum Master| GDITIndianapolis, In, United States
Clarifications: I have been both a scrum master and a project manager, but I consider them to be two very different roles. And I understand why a project managers have an interest in processes, tools, techniques, and frameworks that can influence our profession, such as data analytics, Lean, Scrum, Kanban, Six Sigma, etc. Certainly more knowledge is better, and project management continues to evolve. But I also wonder if we inadvertently diminish our own profession when we focus so much on business roles that are not specifically project management.
Also, I am in no way trying to police the topics on this forum. I think that would be bad for the board and the users. I'm just sharing to something I've observed over time, and I'd genuinely like to know your thoughts on it. There may be good or bad reasons for this, or maybe you disagree with my original observation.
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Apr 05, 2019 5:32 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Wade, good points. I also believe that all this fuss about Agile is diminishing the importance of the project manager role. Agile should be seen as a collection of practices that can improve the project delivery, rather than an alternative to project management.
As you rightly pointed out some project managers are looking at the scrum master role as a survival tactic in organisation that replace them with Scrum masters, although they ask the later to do the same tasks, including financial management and progress reporting.
Thee is also another category of people that used Scrum and now they think that that knowledge it is enough to manage projects.
The web site can't refuse debates but it is our duty (practitioners) to clarify the difference between the 2 roles and that they are complementary rather than opposite.
Saving Changes...
Juan Carlos Flores LunaProcess & IT Governance Manager. PM| TelefonicaQuito, Ecuador, Ecuador
Hi Wade, surprisingly, as you could even notice, many PMs have been involved in Agile projects. Where commonly a Project Mgr has taken the Scrum Master Role. In Scaled Agile frameworks, the role of Project Manager keeps obscured by terms like Team Lead, Product Owner, Team Member, and Specialist. Specialist roles – such as Data Manager, Portfolio Manager, Program Manager, and Operations Manager.
So, as days pass by, especially in the IT industry, it is more and more common to find such behavior and we as Project Manager need to keep the pace.
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2 replies by Juan Carlos Flores Luna and Stelian ROMAN
Apr 05, 2019 5:36 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Juan Carlos, in postings by many of the AM authors, SAFe is not considered an Agile framework. Looking at the background of the author and the framework itself I tend to agree. I believe that it is a nonsense to have portfolio and program managers without a project manager. the scrum master is also a weir addition to another framework than Scrum.
Moreover SAFe is defined as Lean Agile, a contradiction of terms and uses a lot of practices that are 50-60 years old. It is an interesting framework but it's nothing different than mixing planning with PMBoK or PRINCE2 with work packages delivered using Scrum.
Apr 06, 2019 6:45 PM
Juan Carlos Flores Luna
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Hi Wade. Certainly, there are some concepts in a pure Agile framework like Scrum or a kind of evolution for "scaling agile" and we find SAFe, LESS or others. The important point I see is that we are surrounded by Agile initiatives everywhere. Thus, we as PMs need to be prepared to understand and serve such projects. Mainly the reduced number of paperwork related to management can cause.
I think that´s the reason to see an increasing number of posts talking about agile and scrum.
You pointed something interesting, regarding the long time that such initiatives are here. essentially, the self-management. There are a number of samples like the building of the Empire State, where we can see samples of agile teams.
I see Scrum, Six Sigma, the PMBoK framework, etc. all as project management (intentionally not capitalized) problem solving tools, useful for different situations. On large projects, they can all be going on simultaneously in different places. PMI has their framework, but it's their brand and not the only one.
Practitioners tend to market their brands and treat them as the One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to bind them. As a PM involved in many different domains, I'm a lot less interested in the brand names than the functionality they provide, and how I can best utilize it for different applications. At the end of the day, they're still trying to find the best way from Point A to Point B, which is at the heart of project management. Understanding them helps me figure out if there is something I can take from them to improve my own PM framework. Saving Changes...
1. PMs who wish to reinvent themselves as SMs
2. PMs whose jobs are getting eliminated in companies which are moving to a product-centric delivery model
3. PMs who need to co-exist with SMs
Kiron
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Apr 05, 2019 5:42 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Kiron, I agree. I will like to add the Scrum Masters that think that Scrum is a Project Management framework.
Unfortunately the Agile hype is based on frustration that the business must define what they need rather than proven results and in many organisations Agile is used as a way to cover core issues like lack of knowledge and discipline.
I don't see "planning" workshops with 50-60 attendants over 4 weeks as a "better way" but for the Senior Management it is a good PR exercise to "prove" that they are Agile.
I can understand the fear when people that ask common sense questions or tried to explain that some activities are just waste are fired.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
When you perform project management you have to define a framework/process model/process life cycle to use into your project. Following the theory that is defined by business analyst before a project exists (project manager must be included) because is a key component of the solution (solution is equal to "the thing" to create plus "the process" to create it). Because of that Scrum is a matter to be discussed mainly if there are some topics that request opinion from people.
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Apr 05, 2019 5:45 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Sergio, I agree that Scrum/Agile is a topic that need to be discussed on this site because it impacts the project management profession. I would really like to see proof where Agile was a better option and people highlighting the challenges with Agile implementation rather than copy paste from guides and training/marketing materials.
Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Apr 05, 2019 9:59 AM
Replying to Wade Harshman
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Clarifications: I have been both a scrum master and a project manager, but I consider them to be two very different roles. And I understand why a project managers have an interest in processes, tools, techniques, and frameworks that can influence our profession, such as data analytics, Lean, Scrum, Kanban, Six Sigma, etc. Certainly more knowledge is better, and project management continues to evolve. But I also wonder if we inadvertently diminish our own profession when we focus so much on business roles that are not specifically project management.
Also, I am in no way trying to police the topics on this forum. I think that would be bad for the board and the users. I'm just sharing to something I've observed over time, and I'd genuinely like to know your thoughts on it. There may be good or bad reasons for this, or maybe you disagree with my original observation.
Wade, good points. I also believe that all this fuss about Agile is diminishing the importance of the project manager role. Agile should be seen as a collection of practices that can improve the project delivery, rather than an alternative to project management.
As you rightly pointed out some project managers are looking at the scrum master role as a survival tactic in organisation that replace them with Scrum masters, although they ask the later to do the same tasks, including financial management and progress reporting.
Thee is also another category of people that used Scrum and now they think that that knowledge it is enough to manage projects.
The web site can't refuse debates but it is our duty (practitioners) to clarify the difference between the 2 roles and that they are complementary rather than opposite. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Apr 05, 2019 11:40 AM
Replying to Juan Carlos Flores Luna
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Hi Wade, surprisingly, as you could even notice, many PMs have been involved in Agile projects. Where commonly a Project Mgr has taken the Scrum Master Role. In Scaled Agile frameworks, the role of Project Manager keeps obscured by terms like Team Lead, Product Owner, Team Member, and Specialist. Specialist roles – such as Data Manager, Portfolio Manager, Program Manager, and Operations Manager.
So, as days pass by, especially in the IT industry, it is more and more common to find such behavior and we as Project Manager need to keep the pace.
Juan Carlos, in postings by many of the AM authors, SAFe is not considered an Agile framework. Looking at the background of the author and the framework itself I tend to agree. I believe that it is a nonsense to have portfolio and program managers without a project manager. the scrum master is also a weir addition to another framework than Scrum.
Moreover SAFe is defined as Lean Agile, a contradiction of terms and uses a lot of practices that are 50-60 years old. It is an interesting framework but it's nothing different than mixing planning with PMBoK or PRINCE2 with work packages delivered using Scrum. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Apr 05, 2019 1:51 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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Wade -
Here are a few reasons:
1. PMs who wish to reinvent themselves as SMs
2. PMs whose jobs are getting eliminated in companies which are moving to a product-centric delivery model
3. PMs who need to co-exist with SMs
Kiron
Kiron, I agree. I will like to add the Scrum Masters that think that Scrum is a Project Management framework.
Unfortunately the Agile hype is based on frustration that the business must define what they need rather than proven results and in many organisations Agile is used as a way to cover core issues like lack of knowledge and discipline.
I don't see "planning" workshops with 50-60 attendants over 4 weeks as a "better way" but for the Senior Management it is a good PR exercise to "prove" that they are Agile.
I can understand the fear when people that ask common sense questions or tried to explain that some activities are just waste are fired. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Apr 05, 2019 3:39 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
...
When you perform project management you have to define a framework/process model/process life cycle to use into your project. Following the theory that is defined by business analyst before a project exists (project manager must be included) because is a key component of the solution (solution is equal to "the thing" to create plus "the process" to create it). Because of that Scrum is a matter to be discussed mainly if there are some topics that request opinion from people.
Sergio, I agree that Scrum/Agile is a topic that need to be discussed on this site because it impacts the project management profession. I would really like to see proof where Agile was a better option and people highlighting the challenges with Agile implementation rather than copy paste from guides and training/marketing materials.
...
1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Apr 06, 2019 6:22 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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In my actual work place I am in charge of creating all tools related to select the right approach for each initiative. We have five different defined ways to do things including it we use Scrum framework too. Between those tools I have created the checklist to select the approach. Is similar to the checklist I teached from years when i teached Agile and mainly when I teached project manager inside University. To select the approach the "thing" to be created and "the environment" must be taken into account.
But everything must be started with a previous work that is in charge of the business analyst before a project exists as a key component of the solution creation. I have wrote an article that was published by the PMI and the IIBA as "best practice" on that field.
Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Wade, it is a very interesting ethical question and I raised also on this site. Is it moral to promote Scrum or any other framework as better than PMBoK on a PMI endorsed site? Similarly, how ethical is to use your position as leader of a PMI chapter to find clients for your Scrum training courses? Saving Changes...
