Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
In construction and manufacturing duration of most activities depends on volume (quantity) of work to be done measured in physical units (meters, tons, pieces)..
When assigned resources productivity becomes known activity duration is calculated.
Most norms and estimates are applied to the volumes and volume units like unit costs, material requirements per volume unit, resource productivity as volume per hour, etc.
We plan volumes, we measure volumes, and changing volumes (for example entering actual data) we automatically change all corresponding data (remaining activity duration, cost, material consumption) for scheduling and budgeting of remaining works.
We calculate project schedules and budgets basing on activity volumes.
People frequently ask me why and how project managers schedule and manage their projects using tools that do not use volumes as one of activity properties?
Do you know an answer to this simple question? Saving Changes...
Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
Dec 19, 2019 12:18 PM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Vladimir
good to see you contributing here and bringing up some new perspectives and outofthebox ideas.
Not too many in the PMI universe have been exposed to theories or tactics that are not available in English language. I know myself a lot of interesting German and also some Russian articles. Bet there are interesting Japanese and Chinese ideas out there. Quoting DA: choice is good.
I appreciate your contributions to project management since I met you first, at the PMI conference in Den Hague, when you presented jointly with Russ Archibald. Keep giving!
From you I learned about line-of-balace scheduling and tracking.
Thank you Thomas,
it was always a pleasure to meet you at various PM events.
I am sure that sharing experience, methods and tools used around the world could be beneficial for project management community.
I remember special event organized by Orange County PMI Chapter 15 years ago when they invited speakers from different countries (me included) to discuss PM approaches and tools used in their countries. It could be very interesting for everybody. Saving Changes...
Hi Steve,
from your answer I understand that you do not plan and track activity volumes of work, but only duration and costs.
Did I understand correctly that your project includes only office works and resources are office workers?
Yes, and yes, but as mentioned we easily could if desired. For project "planning" phases, yes, it internal "office" work for the most part we track. During project implementation/ execution we use the contractor's schedule which sometimes can easily be 100,000's of thousand of lines, and can include "shop floor" work packages.
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1 reply by Vladimir Liberzon
Dec 19, 2019 1:22 PM
Vladimir Liberzon
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Steve, I doubt that you easily could because your tool does not have such fields as Volume and Productivity. But it usually is not required for planning and tracking of office jobs.
Saving Changes...
Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
Dec 19, 2019 12:52 PM
Replying to Steve Ratkaj
...
Yes, and yes, but as mentioned we easily could if desired. For project "planning" phases, yes, it internal "office" work for the most part we track. During project implementation/ execution we use the contractor's schedule which sometimes can easily be 100,000's of thousand of lines, and can include "shop floor" work packages.
Steve, I doubt that you easily could because your tool does not have such fields as Volume and Productivity. But it usually is not required for planning and tracking of office jobs.
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1 reply by Steve Ratkaj
Dec 19, 2019 2:17 PM
Steve Ratkaj
...
Hi Vladimir;
You are correct if you strictly mean actual volume, cubic metres, for example; however if this the case, it still could be applied as such to some of our ship building projects which build and assemble "blocks" into larger "mega blocks", etc.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 19, 2019 4:57 AM
Replying to Vladimir Liberzon
...
Hi Rami,
yes, volume of work is one of many factors but it determines activity duration and cost.
We can rely on the historical data and create own internal reference-books with unit costs, material requirements per volume units, resource productivity for typical work types, or use industry standards that determine the same parameters and calculate activity duration, cost, material requirements basing on volume of work to be done.
Volume of work is an initial information that is used for calculating activity duration and cost when resource crew assigned to an activity is known.
So it is natural to calculate project schedules, enter actual data and analyze project performance basing on volumes of work done and remained.
My question is about the way volumes of work are managed when the software does not have special fields for volumes of work, resource productivity, unit costs and material requirements, etc.
Best Regards,
VL
Hi Vladimir
Now I got what you're exactly asking about, thanks for elaboration.
Before I get into your question, I would like to clarify one thing: Yes, the volume of work determine the activity duration and cost, but not on its own. I will give you an simple example:
Let's assume I have a 100 sq.m of wall to paint and normally it takes 2 Hours / sq.m for prime coat and the cost is $50/Hour/Labor - I can't just directly go and say I will assign 1 Labor to do the job and calculate:
Activity Duration: 100 sq.m x 2 Hours = 200 Hours / 8 Hours / Day = 25 Days.
Cost = 200 x $50 = $10,000
There are lots of factors that are involved:
Labor Availability, Working Hours, Climate, Material Availability - I have to look at the holistic view as those items can't be ignored because they will could impose risk and affect the duration and cost if for example if its winter, it might take more time for the paint to dry, or if the material is long lead item, or there is labor shortage, or there are holidays. That's how we come to a reasonable estimate that has built-in contingencies.
Now coming to your question: I worked with an International Company overseas for 10 years on very large jobs ($300 Mil and above) and tracking productivity was very crucial. We had an in-house program called Pyramid that takes data from Primavera and has additional parameters to track progress, productivity, unit costs, Manhours and so on. Of course, the outcome from the program is as good as the data reported from the site so one needs to ensure the reporting is genuine and actual for the outcome to be reliable.
Currently, I work in a smaller size consulting company and I do track those parameters using an excel sheet that I developed that suits our needs as a consulting company.
Those are the two ways that I've encountered throughout my career to track those parameters you are referring to.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
RK
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1 reply by Vladimir Liberzon
Dec 19, 2019 3:34 PM
Vladimir Liberzon
...
Hi Rami
Yes you right that Volume is not the sole factor that determines activity duration and cost.
The logic is as follows:
We know activity type and volume,
We know resource productivity on this type of activity,
We know material requirements per volume unit of this type of activity
We know the cost of material units
We know hourly rate of our resources.
So if we create and assign certain crew of resources we will be able to calculate activity duration, activity cost, activity material requirements.
In your example:
An activity is Wall painting with the Volume=100 sqm
The crew consists of two painters
Following data can be kept in the company reference-book and used in all projects:
- Painter rate is $50 per hour and productivity on this type of work is 0.5 sqm per hour
- Paint requirement on this type of work is 0.14 l per sqm
- Paint cost is $10 per liter
As the result the software calculates that activity duration is 100 hours, it will need 14 liters of paint, and the cost of this activity will be $10140.
If I will play with the volume or the crew, activity duration, cost and material requirements will change accordingly. Everything depends on the Volume and all norms are connected with volumes.
When we collect actual data we look at volumes of work that were done and remained.
At the moment I don’t discuss uncertainty and risk simulation.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 19, 2019 4:57 AM
Replying to Vladimir Liberzon
...
Hi Rami,
yes, volume of work is one of many factors but it determines activity duration and cost.
We can rely on the historical data and create own internal reference-books with unit costs, material requirements per volume units, resource productivity for typical work types, or use industry standards that determine the same parameters and calculate activity duration, cost, material requirements basing on volume of work to be done.
Volume of work is an initial information that is used for calculating activity duration and cost when resource crew assigned to an activity is known.
So it is natural to calculate project schedules, enter actual data and analyze project performance basing on volumes of work done and remained.
My question is about the way volumes of work are managed when the software does not have special fields for volumes of work, resource productivity, unit costs and material requirements, etc.
Best Regards,
VL
Vladimir
This might be a bit off topic, but I published an article in the past on how to improve productivity on projects. Here is the link if you are interested to go through it:
Steve, I doubt that you easily could because your tool does not have such fields as Volume and Productivity. But it usually is not required for planning and tracking of office jobs.
Hi Vladimir;
You are correct if you strictly mean actual volume, cubic metres, for example; however if this the case, it still could be applied as such to some of our ship building projects which build and assemble "blocks" into larger "mega blocks", etc.
...
1 reply by Vladimir Liberzon
Dec 19, 2019 3:46 PM
Vladimir Liberzon
...
Yes, in shipbuilding it certainly necessary.
Detailed schedule of building ship body that we developed consisted of more than 11000 activities, all with volumes of work to be done and assigned crews productivities.
This project also required taking into account space constraints.
Saving Changes...
Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
Dec 19, 2019 1:58 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Hi Vladimir
Now I got what you're exactly asking about, thanks for elaboration.
Before I get into your question, I would like to clarify one thing: Yes, the volume of work determine the activity duration and cost, but not on its own. I will give you an simple example:
Let's assume I have a 100 sq.m of wall to paint and normally it takes 2 Hours / sq.m for prime coat and the cost is $50/Hour/Labor - I can't just directly go and say I will assign 1 Labor to do the job and calculate:
Activity Duration: 100 sq.m x 2 Hours = 200 Hours / 8 Hours / Day = 25 Days.
Cost = 200 x $50 = $10,000
There are lots of factors that are involved:
Labor Availability, Working Hours, Climate, Material Availability - I have to look at the holistic view as those items can't be ignored because they will could impose risk and affect the duration and cost if for example if its winter, it might take more time for the paint to dry, or if the material is long lead item, or there is labor shortage, or there are holidays. That's how we come to a reasonable estimate that has built-in contingencies.
Now coming to your question: I worked with an International Company overseas for 10 years on very large jobs ($300 Mil and above) and tracking productivity was very crucial. We had an in-house program called Pyramid that takes data from Primavera and has additional parameters to track progress, productivity, unit costs, Manhours and so on. Of course, the outcome from the program is as good as the data reported from the site so one needs to ensure the reporting is genuine and actual for the outcome to be reliable.
Currently, I work in a smaller size consulting company and I do track those parameters using an excel sheet that I developed that suits our needs as a consulting company.
Those are the two ways that I've encountered throughout my career to track those parameters you are referring to.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
RK
Hi Rami
Yes you right that Volume is not the sole factor that determines activity duration and cost.
The logic is as follows:
We know activity type and volume,
We know resource productivity on this type of activity,
We know material requirements per volume unit of this type of activity
We know the cost of material units
We know hourly rate of our resources.
So if we create and assign certain crew of resources we will be able to calculate activity duration, activity cost, activity material requirements.
In your example:
An activity is Wall painting with the Volume=100 sqm
The crew consists of two painters
Following data can be kept in the company reference-book and used in all projects:
- Painter rate is $50 per hour and productivity on this type of work is 0.5 sqm per hour
- Paint requirement on this type of work is 0.14 l per sqm
- Paint cost is $10 per liter
As the result the software calculates that activity duration is 100 hours, it will need 14 liters of paint, and the cost of this activity will be $10140.
If I will play with the volume or the crew, activity duration, cost and material requirements will change accordingly. Everything depends on the Volume and all norms are connected with volumes.
When we collect actual data we look at volumes of work that were done and remained.
At the moment I don’t discuss uncertainty and risk simulation.
...
1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 19, 2019 3:46 PM
Rami Kaibni
...
I think for initial estimates, we are on the same page, but of course you need to account for risk which I understand is off topic for this discussion.
For progress monitoring, I totally agree with you: "Collect actual data, look at volumes of work that were done and remained" but we also use our own intelligence to derive the ETC numbers from those and this is maybe we might be looking a this differently.
If one day I had the pleasure of meeting you in person, I would like to discuss further with you about this topic. It is tough to put everything in writing.
RK
Saving Changes...
Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
Dec 19, 2019 2:17 PM
Replying to Steve Ratkaj
...
Hi Vladimir;
You are correct if you strictly mean actual volume, cubic metres, for example; however if this the case, it still could be applied as such to some of our ship building projects which build and assemble "blocks" into larger "mega blocks", etc.
Yes, in shipbuilding it certainly necessary.
Detailed schedule of building ship body that we developed consisted of more than 11000 activities, all with volumes of work to be done and assigned crews productivities.
This project also required taking into account space constraints. Saving Changes...
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 19, 2019 3:34 PM
Replying to Vladimir Liberzon
...
Hi Rami
Yes you right that Volume is not the sole factor that determines activity duration and cost.
The logic is as follows:
We know activity type and volume,
We know resource productivity on this type of activity,
We know material requirements per volume unit of this type of activity
We know the cost of material units
We know hourly rate of our resources.
So if we create and assign certain crew of resources we will be able to calculate activity duration, activity cost, activity material requirements.
In your example:
An activity is Wall painting with the Volume=100 sqm
The crew consists of two painters
Following data can be kept in the company reference-book and used in all projects:
- Painter rate is $50 per hour and productivity on this type of work is 0.5 sqm per hour
- Paint requirement on this type of work is 0.14 l per sqm
- Paint cost is $10 per liter
As the result the software calculates that activity duration is 100 hours, it will need 14 liters of paint, and the cost of this activity will be $10140.
If I will play with the volume or the crew, activity duration, cost and material requirements will change accordingly. Everything depends on the Volume and all norms are connected with volumes.
When we collect actual data we look at volumes of work that were done and remained.
At the moment I don’t discuss uncertainty and risk simulation.
I think for initial estimates, we are on the same page, but of course you need to account for risk which I understand is off topic for this discussion.
For progress monitoring, I totally agree with you: "Collect actual data, look at volumes of work that were done and remained" but we also use our own intelligence to derive the ETC numbers from those and this is maybe we might be looking a this differently.
If one day I had the pleasure of meeting you in person, I would like to discuss further with you about this topic. It is tough to put everything in writing.
RK
...
1 reply by Vladimir Liberzon
Dec 19, 2019 4:18 PM
Vladimir Liberzon
...
Yes, it is tough to put everything in writing.
I raised this question because project planning and management approaches used in Russia and our project management software are somewhat different from those used abroad. Russians are used to work with volumes and norms and so they are frequently disappointed when try to apply Western tools (P6, MSP) to managing their projects.
I want to understand why this approach that looks natural is not required in the West.
There are many other differences in our approaches and methods that may be discussed in future. But this one is very simple and good for the start of these discussions.
Thank you for your responses, I enjoyed our discussion.
Best Regards,
Vladimir
Saving Changes...
Vladimir LiberzonR&D Director| Spider Project TeamMoscow, Russian Federation
Dec 19, 2019 2:05 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Vladimir
This might be a bit off topic, but I published an article in the past on how to improve productivity on projects. Here is the link if you are interested to go through it:
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