Andrew SoswaTechnology leader| Leading global financial institutionElk Grove Village, Il, United States
I propose that we petition PMI to create "PMI Agile Project Manager".
Creating PMI-DA waters down PMI-ACP and creating PMPv7 with Agile component is muddling the understanding what each cert is. HR recruiters know what PMP is but when I try to explain PMI-ACP, they look at me crazy until I tell them "it's like CSM".
"PMI Agile Project Manager" is easier to market because it is more recognizable by everyone.
How can I create and run this petition? Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
Specific to your question, I would not know the best way to create or run the petition. Maybe simply a Google or Microsoft Form available to the general public.
That said, and while I follow the logic, I don't agree, that PMI-ACP is just like CSM. CSM is specific to the role of Scrum Master in the Scrum framework, while the ACP is a general practitioner exam.
I'd be more inclined to restructure the name, keeping with the original idea, as PMI-Agile Practitioner.
Maybe it is not just a question of branding, but marketing as well.
I wonder, though, if and/or how the ACP will be impacted by the DA and added content to PMP. I'd like to get Kiron's input here. Saving Changes...
Based on the DA train-the-trainer workshop I attended in November, I believe that there will be a DA specific PM certification coming sometime in 2020. The working name for it is "DA Lean Project Manager" (DALPM) and the forecast launch timing was Q2.
This is specifically focused on PMs whereas the ACP is for someone that may not be in a PM role but might be in an Agile Lead role.
As far as the impact of the DA certs on the PMI-ACP, this question was repeatedly asked to multiple PMI folks at that workshop and the standard response was "No changes planned at present".
Kiron
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2 replies by Luis Branco and Rami Kaibni
Dec 28, 2019 4:34 AM
Rami Kaibni
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Kiron, Thanks for sharing this information.
Dec 28, 2019 10:51 AM
Luis Branco
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Dear Kiron Thanks for the precious info
I've been to Disciplined Agile now and they have 6 certifications:
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 27, 2019 6:05 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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Andrew S. (and Andrew C.)-
Based on the DA train-the-trainer workshop I attended in November, I believe that there will be a DA specific PM certification coming sometime in 2020. The working name for it is "DA Lean Project Manager" (DALPM) and the forecast launch timing was Q2.
This is specifically focused on PMs whereas the ACP is for someone that may not be in a PM role but might be in an Agile Lead role.
As far as the impact of the DA certs on the PMI-ACP, this question was repeatedly asked to multiple PMI folks at that workshop and the standard response was "No changes planned at present".
Kiron
Kiron, Thanks for sharing this information. Saving Changes...
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Andrew S.,
While I totally understand where you’re coming from and tend to agree with you, I am not sure I am in favour of renaming it as PMI Agile Project Manager.
First, generally speaking, I am not in favour of having the PMI preceding ACP, RMP, PBA, SP. It could be just as simple as the PMP is. For example:
ACP: Agile Certified Practitioner or Professional
RMP: Risk Management Professional
Having the ACP or RMP designations means you demonstrate the necessary skills as a professional in Risk Management or Agile Practice, not only within the boundaries of PMI but globally, within any organization so I would probably be in favour of renaming it:
ACP (My 1st preference ) or AMP (Agile Management Professional or a Practitioner).
Those are my 2 Cents.
RK
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2 replies by Andrew Soswa and Kiron Bondale
Dec 28, 2019 9:36 AM
Kiron Bondale
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Rami - I definitely agree with not having the "PMI-" before the certification names. It is inconsistent (the PMP, PgMP & CAPM don't have these) and it makes it that much harder to list all achieved credentials when dealing with online forms that have fixed, low limit fields for names or suffixes.
Kiron
Dec 29, 2019 7:43 PM
Andrew Soswa
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I would sign up under AMP (Agile Management Professional).
Sounds good as a short hand "I am AMP'd"
Saving Changes...
Alexandre CostaScrum Master| Integer Consulting - Pictet technologiesLoures, Portugal
I have both certifications PMI-ACP and CSM.
I will leave here my thougths, in a european comercial perspective and really try to bring the truth ( at least my true) before diplomacie, could be controversial, you may not agree but i believe that the general feeling in most of the european union. I am not trying to discuss the merit of the certifications but the actual comercial value in my environment.
- In Europe the CSM has more value (comercial) than ACP, never saw asking a certification of ACP as good to have in a job on the other hand CSM or CSPO are commonly asked in Agile projects jobs, many times are mandatory. - Spoke many times with HR recruiters they do not understand the meaning of the PMI-ACP, is a Agile leader, is a Agile project manager, is only someone who kowns how to work in Agile environments, is a practicioner, could be only a team member like a developer. - CSM like PMP are crystal clear roles. - PMI-ACP is an approach to several agile and lean frameworks, methodologies, lifecycles what ever you want to call, enphasizing the techniques being used, as a practicioner , leader ( several kinds of leadship), project manager, Scrum master, Agile leader, the performance of the team , the behavior of the leader etc.. ( so it's all, but at the same time nothing in specific, very generalist ) - At government level (at least in Portugal) where is mandatory to have a certification to lead a public project the PMI-ACP is not valid, only with PMP, PRINCE 2,IPMA level C you can apply or be selected to this position. - Due to market needs and demands, IPMA has developed the certification of Agile Leader becoming a step ahead of PMI in this domain in my opinion. The position is clear and the objective is to lead Agile projects. - Discipline Agile has no expression in Europe.
I have to agree with @Adrew Soswa, at least the PMI-ACP , should be called PMI Agile Leader at least in a comercial perspective, if you think that the certification evaluate that skills.
The DA Lean Project Manager annouced by @Kiron it will send to second plan the PM-ACP certification in a comercial perspective.
Alexandre Costa
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 28, 2019 4:18 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Alexandre
Interesting. I am not very familiar of how things work in Europe. However, I am a member of a project management organization in Europe based out of Germany and they do value the PMI-ACP.
On another note, regarding your first point, how does CSM add value to industries like Real Estate Development or Construction ?
RK
Saving Changes...
Alexandre CostaScrum Master| Integer Consulting - Pictet technologiesLoures, Portugal
After a little more of research I noticed this changes in the site of Discipline Agile, which are remarkable surprising.
How to Become a Certified Disciplined Agile Practitioner (CDAP) ___________________________________________________ Step 1: Earn your CDA designation after 31 December 2019
Step 2: Earn your PMI-ACP - or - Gain 2 years of agile team experience, in any role
Step 3: Submit your application form and pass your reference checks CONGRATULATIONS
Step 1: Earn your CDA designation before 01 January 2020
Step 2: Attend a Foundations of Lean class from a Certified Disciplined Agile Instructor - and - pass the certification test
Step 3: Earn your PMI-ACP - or - Gain 2 years of agile team experience, in any role
- then - Submit your application form and pass your reference checks CONGRATULATIONS
So I can see a direct relation between Discipline Agile Practitioner and the PMI-ACP, but not a relation as an Agile Leader.
Alexandre Costa
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 28, 2019 4:16 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Alexandre
Interesting information, thanks for bringing it up. I didn't know they updated their website.
Looks like PMI-ACP is an asset for pursuing your DA path - I am planning to get on it in 2020.
Cheers
RK
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
The worst thing we can do as a community is to call things something project management, something project manager. This way to call things jeopardizes the work of people that are working today but too much the intentions of people to find a new job. And at the end, that is not right. We are project managers working in different environments following different approaches/frameworks/methods. If we call something then we are against the basement of project management. Saving Changes...
While I totally understand where you’re coming from and tend to agree with you, I am not sure I am in favour of renaming it as PMI Agile Project Manager.
First, generally speaking, I am not in favour of having the PMI preceding ACP, RMP, PBA, SP. It could be just as simple as the PMP is. For example:
ACP: Agile Certified Practitioner or Professional
RMP: Risk Management Professional
Having the ACP or RMP designations means you demonstrate the necessary skills as a professional in Risk Management or Agile Practice, not only within the boundaries of PMI but globally, within any organization so I would probably be in favour of renaming it:
ACP (My 1st preference ) or AMP (Agile Management Professional or a Practitioner).
Those are my 2 Cents.
RK
Rami - I definitely agree with not having the "PMI-" before the certification names. It is inconsistent (the PMP, PgMP & CAPM don't have these) and it makes it that much harder to list all achieved credentials when dealing with online forms that have fixed, low limit fields for names or suffixes.
Kiron
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2 replies by Alexandre Costa and Rami Kaibni
Dec 28, 2019 9:52 AM
Alexandre Costa
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@Kiron
I'm sure that removing the PMI in the beginning it will not improve the knowledge of the HR recruiters about what is ACP. I think that is the concern pointed by Andrew S.
The main problem i see here is when the time comes, the members will decide if spent money in renewing the certification brings value or if the same money spent in other certification more well known by the market will be a best bet.
Alexandre Costa
Dec 28, 2019 4:20 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Kiron
I totally agree and that's why I was never in favor of it and if I would participate in a petition, it would be to drop this from ACP, RMP, SP and PBA certifications.
RK
Saving Changes...
Alexandre CostaScrum Master| Integer Consulting - Pictet technologiesLoures, Portugal
Dec 28, 2019 9:36 AM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Rami - I definitely agree with not having the "PMI-" before the certification names. It is inconsistent (the PMP, PgMP & CAPM don't have these) and it makes it that much harder to list all achieved credentials when dealing with online forms that have fixed, low limit fields for names or suffixes.
Kiron
@Kiron
I'm sure that removing the PMI in the beginning it will not improve the knowledge of the HR recruiters about what is ACP. I think that is the concern pointed by Andrew S.
The main problem i see here is when the time comes, the members will decide if spent money in renewing the certification brings value or if the same money spent in other certification more well known by the market will be a best bet.
Alexandre Costa
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 28, 2019 4:23 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Alexandre
Again, in North America, ACP is reasonably known. Don't forget that it is also a fairly new certification.
On another note, the driver for reneweing shouldn't be the market but how much this credential adds value to you as a professional. If my voice counts, the I can confidentantly assure you that it added lots of value to me as a professional.
RK
Saving Changes...
Luis BrancoCEO| Business Insight, Consultores de Gestão, LdªCarcavelos, Lisboa, Portugal
Dec 27, 2019 6:05 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Andrew S. (and Andrew C.)-
Based on the DA train-the-trainer workshop I attended in November, I believe that there will be a DA specific PM certification coming sometime in 2020. The working name for it is "DA Lean Project Manager" (DALPM) and the forecast launch timing was Q2.
This is specifically focused on PMs whereas the ACP is for someone that may not be in a PM role but might be in an Agile Lead role.
As far as the impact of the DA certs on the PMI-ACP, this question was repeatedly asked to multiple PMI folks at that workshop and the standard response was "No changes planned at present".
Kiron
Dear Kiron Thanks for the precious info
I've been to Disciplined Agile now and they have 6 certifications:
Interestingly they cite Shu- Ha- Ri, which theme I addressed in a topic
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1 reply by Kiron Bondale
Dec 28, 2019 11:54 AM
Kiron Bondale
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Luis -
That is the current state.
As I mentioned, those of us who participated in the train-the-trainer session were given a sneak peak at what's coming in 2020 and I can assure you that the plans they shared reflected a number of additional certifications...
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