Andrew SoswaTechnology leader| Leading global financial institutionElk Grove Village, Il, United States
I propose that we petition PMI to create "PMI Agile Project Manager".
Creating PMI-DA waters down PMI-ACP and creating PMPv7 with Agile component is muddling the understanding what each cert is. HR recruiters know what PMP is but when I try to explain PMI-ACP, they look at me crazy until I tell them "it's like CSM".
"PMI Agile Project Manager" is easier to market because it is more recognizable by everyone.
How can I create and run this petition? Saving Changes...
Alexandre CostaScrum Master| Integer Consulting - Pictet technologiesLoures, Portugal
Dec 29, 2019 1:16 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Alexandre
First, you are a great member and I personally appreciate your valuable input and honest opinion always so please keep contributing.
Second, if PMI-ACP becomes a subset of DA then for sure thats a concern for me too. This should have been made clear to everyone in advance, if thats the intention.
On a last note, I live in Canada, I barely heard of DA until Kiron opened my eyes to it in 2018. As you mentioned, for now, there is nothing official and its all speculations. Lets wait and see till the official announcement.
On more thing to keep in mind: PMP and all other PMI credentials when they first were initiated, it took time for them to get known, people and chapters to adapt to them. I personally think that with time, DA will become well known as I did some research and read some articles and it is in fact very interesting and practical.
Best wishes to you as well in 2020.
Cheers
RK
Rami,
Thank you for always be available to give your honest opinions that I respect immensely.
I recomend this article reading that I found on the NET is very credible and somehow enlightening about DA's true market reach and hypothetical future plans.
It's a very detailed Article with interviews to Scott Ambler and to Mark Lines.
Alexandre Costa I wish you a great 2020
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 31, 2019 1:58 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Alexandre
Thank you for your kind compliment, the feeling is mutual. This article is spot on, thank you so much for sharing it.
All the Best in 2020.
RK
Saving Changes...
Luis BrancoCEO| Business Insight, Consultores de Gestão, LdªCarcavelos, Lisboa, Portugal
Dec 29, 2019 11:26 AM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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Luis -
No - the partnership with Agile Alliance was purely for the purposes of producing the Agile Practice Guide. DA has been a participant of the Agile Alliance's conferences but is a wholly separate entity. Both the Flex and DA acquisitions were done independently by PMI.
Kiron
Dear Kiron
Thank you for clarifying this matter. Saving Changes...
Luis BrancoCEO| Business Insight, Consultores de Gestão, LdªCarcavelos, Lisboa, Portugal
Dec 29, 2019 12:53 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Luis
Not sure those calculations are very accurate. It does cost much lower than that. This is how much it did cost me:
Exam Fee: $435 (PMI Member) Course on Udemy: $25 Simulation Exams on PM PrepCast: $100 Hours of Study: $0 (This is personal time, not working hours)
Total = $560 USD
By the way, just for your info, as per the 2018 financial report of PMI (Which is published publicaly), there received $203,532,837 Million just from Dues and Professional Examination Fees. That's almost 25 Million more than 2017.
Hope this makes sense.
RK
Dear Rami Thank you for sharing with us your accounts about PMI-ACP certification cost
Not all people are PMI members. Cannot calculate price based on PMI assumption Some, to get the member discount, joined the PMI
Exam Preparation Course ($ 25). Does PMI recognize these hours without certificate? How much does the certificate cost
Hours of study are an opportunity cost (don't you usually count opportunity costs on your projects?)
We all know PMI is a business with very interesting recipes.
How do they spend the dough on recipes?
This is another conversation
What is curious is that they are always asking for volunteers :-)
But an American-style business model, similar to Toastmasters :-)
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 30, 2019 1:01 AM
Rami Kaibni
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Luis
I hope that after attaining more the 30 certifications so far, I am able to properly evaluate the courses I take and assess the cost vs added value.
To answer your questions:
1- Assume the person is not a PMI member, add $60 (Big Deal?) - For whoever is taking the exam, doing membership makes lots of sense as this discount pays out 40% of your membership and the rest of the value you get it back from renewal fees and access to full content.
2- Yes, the curse on Udemy, at the time I took it had a discount from $200 to $25 (Canadian). It was an excellent course for Joseph Phillips who is an R.E.P for PMI.
Worst case scenario, $620 in total. The $2,500 total you calculated is over the top, not sure where you got this number from to be honest.
I am not in a position to discuss, nor am I aware, how PMI spends their doug, or whats their model for volunteering. I know they add value to the profession and they added value to me as a person. When they give me a reason to investigate their intentions, I will do so without hestation and feedback to you but so far, I am good :-)
Do you think this was a good approach or not ? I am honestly neutral or indifferent.
In my opinion, if DA is Agnostic, they should stick to what they believe in and not incorporate a role within a certification that they previously critisized just for marketing purposes. For me, that goes beyond what they believe in, somehow.
RK
Great question Rami!
Me and a few fellow long standing DA supporters all tried to influence the "powers that be" in Atlanta at the train-the-trainer workshop to change the name to something less method-centric and my opinion is that Mark and Scott would have gone a different direction but the marketing numbers likely rendered their resistance futile.
That's just my personal opinion...
Kiron
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 30, 2019 1:04 AM
Rami Kaibni
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Kiron
Thanks for your transparent feedback. It's unfortunate that marketing takes presedence over beliefs - This looks to me like a pure business model for generating profit.
RK
Saving Changes...
Andrew SoswaTechnology leader| Leading global financial institutionElk Grove Village, Il, United States
Dec 28, 2019 4:42 AM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Andrew S.,
While I totally understand where you’re coming from and tend to agree with you, I am not sure I am in favour of renaming it as PMI Agile Project Manager.
First, generally speaking, I am not in favour of having the PMI preceding ACP, RMP, PBA, SP. It could be just as simple as the PMP is. For example:
ACP: Agile Certified Practitioner or Professional
RMP: Risk Management Professional
Having the ACP or RMP designations means you demonstrate the necessary skills as a professional in Risk Management or Agile Practice, not only within the boundaries of PMI but globally, within any organization so I would probably be in favour of renaming it:
ACP (My 1st preference ) or AMP (Agile Management Professional or a Practitioner).
Those are my 2 Cents.
RK
I would sign up under AMP (Agile Management Professional).
Sounds good as a short hand "I am AMP'd"
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Dec 30, 2019 2:50 PM
Rami Kaibni
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I find it better than the short hand for the PMP: "I am PMP'd".
Saving Changes...
Andrew SoswaTechnology leader| Leading global financial institutionElk Grove Village, Il, United States
Now, I am a little p**d. What's the value of PMI-ACP when it is incorporated in CDAP.
The success of PMI run on success of PMP, and more specifically on backs of all members and HR who put value in that certification.
I do not see the same enthusiasm behind PMI-ACP.
The multiple DA, PMI, FLEX certs are going the Scrum.org and AgileAlliance 10+ certs - spin-offs that dillute the value of main cert.
Worse.
I read and hear of resentment that PMI-ACP is devalued.
It becomes tiring to read same few DA people on LinkedIn... and wondering what's their Agile knowledge (outside of DA).
It's really disheartening that PMI Global does not share the strategy behind all that confusion.
"Waiting and see what happens" - as probably some good PMs know - is not a great project management strategy.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Dec 30, 2019 10:26 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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You bring to the table the key item: the lack of information from PMI side. In fact, I am in contact with FLEX people from long time ago and when you read what they (All Shalloare posting in linkedin really scary. Is not the same from Scott Ambler. My perception is the PMI give a very important step to go for DaD (I do not have the same concept from FLEX) but my hope lies only in what Scott Ambler can do in this situation. By the way, I think the worst thing the PMI can do is directing Agile to software domain only.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 29, 2019 3:10 PM
Replying to Luis Branco
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Dear Rami Thank you for sharing with us your accounts about PMI-ACP certification cost
Not all people are PMI members. Cannot calculate price based on PMI assumption Some, to get the member discount, joined the PMI
Exam Preparation Course ($ 25). Does PMI recognize these hours without certificate? How much does the certificate cost
Hours of study are an opportunity cost (don't you usually count opportunity costs on your projects?)
We all know PMI is a business with very interesting recipes.
How do they spend the dough on recipes?
This is another conversation
What is curious is that they are always asking for volunteers :-)
But an American-style business model, similar to Toastmasters :-)
Luis
I hope that after attaining more the 30 certifications so far, I am able to properly evaluate the courses I take and assess the cost vs added value.
To answer your questions:
1- Assume the person is not a PMI member, add $60 (Big Deal?) - For whoever is taking the exam, doing membership makes lots of sense as this discount pays out 40% of your membership and the rest of the value you get it back from renewal fees and access to full content.
2- Yes, the curse on Udemy, at the time I took it had a discount from $200 to $25 (Canadian). It was an excellent course for Joseph Phillips who is an R.E.P for PMI.
Worst case scenario, $620 in total. The $2,500 total you calculated is over the top, not sure where you got this number from to be honest.
I am not in a position to discuss, nor am I aware, how PMI spends their doug, or whats their model for volunteering. I know they add value to the profession and they added value to me as a person. When they give me a reason to investigate their intentions, I will do so without hestation and feedback to you but so far, I am good :-)
RK
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1 reply by Luis Branco
Dec 30, 2019 9:00 AM
Luis Branco
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Dear Rami Thanks for your comment
Far from me, the idea of ??questioning your ability to assess the cost-effectiveness of training offered in the project management market (predictive, adaptive or hybrid approaches)
The price for attending a PMI-ACP certification exam preparation course ranges from € 1,000.00 (early bird) to € 2,000.00. In-person training
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Dec 29, 2019 5:02 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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Great question Rami!
Me and a few fellow long standing DA supporters all tried to influence the "powers that be" in Atlanta at the train-the-trainer workshop to change the name to something less method-centric and my opinion is that Mark and Scott would have gone a different direction but the marketing numbers likely rendered their resistance futile.
That's just my personal opinion...
Kiron
Kiron
Thanks for your transparent feedback. It's unfortunate that marketing takes presedence over beliefs - This looks to me like a pure business model for generating profit.
RK Saving Changes...
Wade HarshmanScrum Master| GDITIndianapolis, In, United States
What I've read in this discussion indicates that PMI isn't entirely certain what the future holds for the ACP, but might make some decisions this next year.
That seems reasonable to me. While more people continue to earn the ACP, I don't think it's received the recognition that PMI had hoped that it would. I also see the potential that DA could over-shadow the ACP as PMI continues to adapt and evolve in order to stay dominant in a changing world. I don't know what those odds are, I'm just recognizing the potential.
That said, there has been significant investment into the ACP, and I see no reason to scrap it. I would image that maintaining a certification is not nearly as expensive as creating or expanding one. PMI certainly has other certifications that are less popular and recognizable, although I would add that these generally support or build off of PMI's bread-and-butter, the PMP. When PMI's push towards agility becomes more directly linked to the PMP, then we'll know it's time to take it seriously.
(I have no inside knowledge of PMI's strategy, this is all mere outsider-looking-in speculation.)
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1 reply by Kiron Bondale
Dec 30, 2019 9:19 AM
Kiron Bondale
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Wade -
Having reviewed the draft chapters of the PMBOK Guide, 7th edition and knowing that 50% of the questions in the new PMP exam will be agile/hybrid-related, I'd suggest that PMI is legitimately embracing agility.
Luis BrancoCEO| Business Insight, Consultores de Gestão, LdªCarcavelos, Lisboa, Portugal
Dec 30, 2019 1:01 AM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Luis
I hope that after attaining more the 30 certifications so far, I am able to properly evaluate the courses I take and assess the cost vs added value.
To answer your questions:
1- Assume the person is not a PMI member, add $60 (Big Deal?) - For whoever is taking the exam, doing membership makes lots of sense as this discount pays out 40% of your membership and the rest of the value you get it back from renewal fees and access to full content.
2- Yes, the curse on Udemy, at the time I took it had a discount from $200 to $25 (Canadian). It was an excellent course for Joseph Phillips who is an R.E.P for PMI.
Worst case scenario, $620 in total. The $2,500 total you calculated is over the top, not sure where you got this number from to be honest.
I am not in a position to discuss, nor am I aware, how PMI spends their doug, or whats their model for volunteering. I know they add value to the profession and they added value to me as a person. When they give me a reason to investigate their intentions, I will do so without hestation and feedback to you but so far, I am good :-)
RK
Dear Rami Thanks for your comment
Far from me, the idea of ??questioning your ability to assess the cost-effectiveness of training offered in the project management market (predictive, adaptive or hybrid approaches)
The price for attending a PMI-ACP certification exam preparation course ranges from € 1,000.00 (early bird) to € 2,000.00. In-person training
Long story short, your statement ... ("Certification costs per person: 21 hours of training + hours of study + $ 495.00 (exam) = $ 2500.00 (lowest cost)") ... is not very accurate and could be misleading to new candidates because the $2,500 is actually not the lowest cost, but might be the highest cost if you decide you want to attend a full time in-person class which in my case, I find unneccesary but thats a personal preference.
There are prices for course than goes up to $5,000 and take it from me Luis, that doesn't mean they are better than the $200 courses.
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