Yan WuTrainer/Consultant| Changeway Management Consulting Co., Ltd.Beijing, China, Mainland
I was involved in an interesting discussion yesterday. One of a trainer-to-be issued an opionion that there should be someone issue a file of the project's final closure after the finish of 4.7.
He took his idea by seeing one of the item in the charter, project approval requirement. In Chinese version of PMBOK v6, the "sign off on project" item in project approval requirement was translated as "issed the end of the project". For that reason he thought that there should be a file to issue by the end of 4.7. He also issued that works in 4.7 should raise WBS and spent cost through control accounts.
I showed him the idea that the "project approval requirement" is about how deliverables get accepted, and shared the idea that 4.7 should be carried out by the performing organization. And he refused the idea because in his experience, he should budget the closure cost in the total cost.
Now we decide to put this Q to the whole community that how do you define the "project approval requirement", whether the approval means the accpectance of deliverables(so it's something to sign on to annouce the start of 4.7) or it's the final signal of project end(which means should be finished by/after the end of 4.7)
A little question in addtion to this one is, how is the cost of activities in 4.7 charged. In my opionion, the performing organization took charge of the closure process, although PM could title these expenses to the project to caculate the total real expense of the project. Is that a common practise or not? Saving Changes...
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Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Yan Wu, interesting discussion.
For your 2nd question, I think the related cost should be in the estimate of the project and charged to the project. Since there is involvement of the receiving organization (handover, approval), they should bear their own cost though. Sometimes 4.7. includes a own transition or change management project with own budget. So it depends.
For the 1st question about how the project approval manifests itself. In practice I have seen a signed approval letter and verbal or even implicit approval. In a contractual relationship I would insist on a letter, just to have evidence and also most T&C would require it. But even in a non-contractual situation, if it is not easy to get the sponsor to sign for approval, you certainly have a problem as a PM. Not a few sponsors are not confident enough to sign for the organization, because they can not judge all details and with signing they accept accountability for the result.
A good way of mitigating this risk is to let them sign off at milestones, so the final acceptance is not such a big hurdle and they are used to it.
So, overall, my kudos to your trainer.
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1 reply by Yan Wu
Feb 02, 2020 7:48 AM
Yan Wu
...
Thanks for the detail, Thomas.
The scenario that 4.7 includes another project for change or transaction, I can tell that cost are budgeted through project stages.
What we argue about Q2 is that expenses during 4.7 can be paid through a control account without taking about an extra project for the aftermath.
I wanna know how you practise and how you train your junior PM:)
Thanks again for always providing me ideas, Thomas!
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Why do you asking this? Because you are studying for the PMP exam? Depending on that the answer will vay. Remember: is not about what you do in your work life. Is about the PMI expects as an answer in the framework of PMBOK, just in case you are studying for the PMP exam.
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1 reply by Yan Wu
Feb 02, 2020 7:54 AM
Yan Wu
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Thanks for having you again in my topic, Sergio!
We are preparing for PMP training, and one of the trainers-to-be give the idea that WBS should cover the whole 4.7 and make budget for it.
I don't think this is a good idea in PMP training. I gave him my understanding but he still think his idea is closer to the intention of PMBOK. That's why I'm here to ask for a help.
Final closure is highly dependent on your environment and governance process.
On some projects I work, formal approval is given by the external customer/purchaser taking delivery of the end product. On other projects, formal approval is granted by a regulatory agency. On others, it is the formal acceptance of a deliverable that feeds another project. On others yet, there is no formal approval, although we might report on the results at some leadership forum.
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1 reply by Yan Wu
Feb 02, 2020 7:57 AM
Yan Wu
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Thanks for the idea, Keith!
What I really need to figure out is that whether stakeholders issue project approval for the acceptance or for the "real end" of the project.
I think it's quite obivious the former, while my mate think it's of course the latter.
Saving Changes...
Yan WuTrainer/Consultant| Changeway Management Consulting Co., Ltd.Beijing, China, Mainland
Jan 31, 2020 7:57 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Yan Wu, interesting discussion.
For your 2nd question, I think the related cost should be in the estimate of the project and charged to the project. Since there is involvement of the receiving organization (handover, approval), they should bear their own cost though. Sometimes 4.7. includes a own transition or change management project with own budget. So it depends.
For the 1st question about how the project approval manifests itself. In practice I have seen a signed approval letter and verbal or even implicit approval. In a contractual relationship I would insist on a letter, just to have evidence and also most T&C would require it. But even in a non-contractual situation, if it is not easy to get the sponsor to sign for approval, you certainly have a problem as a PM. Not a few sponsors are not confident enough to sign for the organization, because they can not judge all details and with signing they accept accountability for the result.
A good way of mitigating this risk is to let them sign off at milestones, so the final acceptance is not such a big hurdle and they are used to it.
So, overall, my kudos to your trainer.
Thanks for the detail, Thomas.
The scenario that 4.7 includes another project for change or transaction, I can tell that cost are budgeted through project stages.
What we argue about Q2 is that expenses during 4.7 can be paid through a control account without taking about an extra project for the aftermath.
I wanna know how you practise and how you train your junior PM:)
Thanks again for always providing me ideas, Thomas!
...
1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 02, 2020 8:56 AM
Thomas Walenta
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In any case I would budget for 4.7. It is project cost. Since you may not want to go back to the client after closure with an extra invoice, you could use a fixed price prepaid for this work package/control account.
Saving Changes...
Yan WuTrainer/Consultant| Changeway Management Consulting Co., Ltd.Beijing, China, Mainland
Jan 31, 2020 1:39 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
...
Why do you asking this? Because you are studying for the PMP exam? Depending on that the answer will vay. Remember: is not about what you do in your work life. Is about the PMI expects as an answer in the framework of PMBOK, just in case you are studying for the PMP exam.
Thanks for having you again in my topic, Sergio!
We are preparing for PMP training, and one of the trainers-to-be give the idea that WBS should cover the whole 4.7 and make budget for it.
I don't think this is a good idea in PMP training. I gave him my understanding but he still think his idea is closer to the intention of PMBOK. That's why I'm here to ask for a help. Saving Changes...
Yan WuTrainer/Consultant| Changeway Management Consulting Co., Ltd.Beijing, China, Mainland
Jan 31, 2020 2:38 PM
Replying to Keith Novak
...
Final closure is highly dependent on your environment and governance process.
On some projects I work, formal approval is given by the external customer/purchaser taking delivery of the end product. On other projects, formal approval is granted by a regulatory agency. On others, it is the formal acceptance of a deliverable that feeds another project. On others yet, there is no formal approval, although we might report on the results at some leadership forum.
Thanks for the idea, Keith!
What I really need to figure out is that whether stakeholders issue project approval for the acceptance or for the "real end" of the project.
I think it's quite obivious the former, while my mate think it's of course the latter. Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Yan Wu,
I used this language in an 'project acceptance letter' signed by the sponsor:
"This letter is to officially close the project to the project closure date. Any outstanding open points are documented in the list below and will be handled by the project manager."
After receiving this letter, the project manager still has some activities, like filing this letter, informing stakeholders, administrative closure, financial closure, relief of remaining staff, solving/delegating the remaining open points etc. - so the 'real end' of the project may be 2-4 weeks after receiving this letter.
Giving the sponsor the opportunity to document some 'open points', addresses his emotion of autonomy (having a choice) and increases the likelihood to close the project. Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Feb 02, 2020 7:48 AM
Replying to Yan Wu
...
Thanks for the detail, Thomas.
The scenario that 4.7 includes another project for change or transaction, I can tell that cost are budgeted through project stages.
What we argue about Q2 is that expenses during 4.7 can be paid through a control account without taking about an extra project for the aftermath.
I wanna know how you practise and how you train your junior PM:)
Thanks again for always providing me ideas, Thomas!
In any case I would budget for 4.7. It is project cost. Since you may not want to go back to the client after closure with an extra invoice, you could use a fixed price prepaid for this work package/control account. Saving Changes...
