Project Management

Please login or join to subscribe to this thread

PMBOK Guide 7th Disaster Waiting to Happen?

linkedin twitter facebook   Change Management   Leadership   Organizational Project Management  
avatar
Luis Branco CEO| Business Insight, Consultores de Gestão, Ldª Carcavelos, Lisboa, Portugal
Have you had the opportunity to watch the video on YouTube on the topic: "PMBOK Guide 7th Disaster Waiting to Happen?"

What is your opinion on the content of this video?
Sort By:
< 1 ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ... 14 >
avatar
Daire Guiney Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Feb 25, 2020 4:59 PM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Great question, Luis, I would change it slightly to

Was the market interested in this "revolution"? Or is it.

A 2019 study of PwC found that of 100% value created by projects in UK, only 5% came from IT, which is the bastion of agile. Construction, services, government, healthcare all have more than 10%. IT is characterized by small projects and many people looking for help in making ideas a reality, so the voice is loud. So is it about democracy or value creation?

Yes, we live in an age of increasing speed of change. We have yet to find an answer how to deal with it. In the moment it is 'whatever works'.
Dear Thomas,

In relation to your statistic, you must remember that for the most part Healthcare and Government are hugely inefficient due to resistance and change and this flattering statistic is based on a low level of efficiency existing previously in these sectors.

As IT was one of the earlier adopters of efficiency in the workplace and openness and readiness to change, efficiency has been already built in to the business structures and as such finding additional efficiency can be time consuming and expensive.

Daire
avatar
Thomas Walenta Global Project Economy Expert Hackenheim, Germany
Hello Daire,

the statistic is about value created, not cost spent.

Why do you think IT is most efficient? Not sure if IPA or Glaxo agree with your assessment.
...
1 reply by Daire Guiney
Feb 26, 2020 7:36 AM
Daire Guiney
...
Dear Thomas,

The point still stands, that being IT as earlier adopters of efficiency and using the framework of project to implement change.

The project management waterfall methodology has been taught in Computer Science since the eighty's and University students implement projects since at least then.

As for the large multinationals espousing implementing change and projects, a lot of them either hire outside expertise or merge or acquire another company in their relevant field and implement their technology.

There are many examples of companies buying another company just for their IT systems as it is cheaper then implementing the same solution in their own company.

Daire
avatar
Daire Guiney Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Dear Luis,

I am a little surprised that contributors to your question do not bear in mind such aspects as evolution of processes, increase awareness of project management, huge leaps in technology in that last decade, greater desire for efficiency, higher skilled workforce, new trends, new horizons and opportunities and consolidation and rationalization in global markets and business when they approach discussing the topic of PMBOK Version 7.

The PMBOK has greatly evolved over the years in keeping with what is happening in the workplace NOT what is happening in the classroom.

It seems that a lot of people want to get their foot in, leave a mark and contribute very little in relation to PMBOK. I have noticed that the seasoned project managers who have delivered numerous projects over the last decades are not perturbed by PMBOK as they see it as a reference and guide to their already expansive practical knowledge to project managers.

The project managers who seem to have a problem with PMBOK V7 are the ones who are using the standard and framework as their centerpiece for their experience and training in project management.

As a result they feel the need to complain now just in case things don't 'go right for them' in the project management world and then they can all blame the big change in PMBOK from Version 6 to PMBOK version 7 as causing all the problems.

If this is their strategy then they are going to find operating in project management world using all the knowledge from a book a challenge.

There is no substitute for real world experience and before people knock it they should a least know the content and context before commenting.

Daire
...
1 reply by George Jucan
Feb 26, 2020 10:34 AM
George Jucan
...
Daire, your generalization "The project managers who seem to have a problem with PMBOK V7 are the ones who are using the standard and framework as their centerpiece for their experience and training in project management." is either very simplistic or offensive for those that dare to raise their voice against a move imposed from PMI offices.

I do not have a training business, I'm a practitioner that delivered successful programs of over 100M in IT - my experience is in the field, not in the classroom. I also dedicate my time to contributing back to the profession - including participating in standards development (just open any PMBOK written this century and you'll find my name in the appendix).

And I also have a problem with the new Standard as exposed for public comments - and not with PMBOK 7 as the actual Guide was not even exposed for comments.

Comments about the topic of discussion are welcome, but attacking people because they have a different opinion is unprofessional - and against PMI's own Code of Ethics.
avatar
Daire Guiney Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Feb 26, 2020 7:21 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Hello Daire,

the statistic is about value created, not cost spent.

Why do you think IT is most efficient? Not sure if IPA or Glaxo agree with your assessment.
Dear Thomas,

The point still stands, that being IT as earlier adopters of efficiency and using the framework of project to implement change.

The project management waterfall methodology has been taught in Computer Science since the eighty's and University students implement projects since at least then.

As for the large multinationals espousing implementing change and projects, a lot of them either hire outside expertise or merge or acquire another company in their relevant field and implement their technology.

There are many examples of companies buying another company just for their IT systems as it is cheaper then implementing the same solution in their own company.

Daire
avatar
George Jucan Managing Partner| Organizational Perfomance Enablers Network Woodbridge, Ontario, Canada
Feb 26, 2020 7:26 AM
Replying to Daire Guiney
...
Dear Luis,

I am a little surprised that contributors to your question do not bear in mind such aspects as evolution of processes, increase awareness of project management, huge leaps in technology in that last decade, greater desire for efficiency, higher skilled workforce, new trends, new horizons and opportunities and consolidation and rationalization in global markets and business when they approach discussing the topic of PMBOK Version 7.

The PMBOK has greatly evolved over the years in keeping with what is happening in the workplace NOT what is happening in the classroom.

It seems that a lot of people want to get their foot in, leave a mark and contribute very little in relation to PMBOK. I have noticed that the seasoned project managers who have delivered numerous projects over the last decades are not perturbed by PMBOK as they see it as a reference and guide to their already expansive practical knowledge to project managers.

The project managers who seem to have a problem with PMBOK V7 are the ones who are using the standard and framework as their centerpiece for their experience and training in project management.

As a result they feel the need to complain now just in case things don't 'go right for them' in the project management world and then they can all blame the big change in PMBOK from Version 6 to PMBOK version 7 as causing all the problems.

If this is their strategy then they are going to find operating in project management world using all the knowledge from a book a challenge.

There is no substitute for real world experience and before people knock it they should a least know the content and context before commenting.

Daire
Daire, your generalization "The project managers who seem to have a problem with PMBOK V7 are the ones who are using the standard and framework as their centerpiece for their experience and training in project management." is either very simplistic or offensive for those that dare to raise their voice against a move imposed from PMI offices.

I do not have a training business, I'm a practitioner that delivered successful programs of over 100M in IT - my experience is in the field, not in the classroom. I also dedicate my time to contributing back to the profession - including participating in standards development (just open any PMBOK written this century and you'll find my name in the appendix).

And I also have a problem with the new Standard as exposed for public comments - and not with PMBOK 7 as the actual Guide was not even exposed for comments.

Comments about the topic of discussion are welcome, but attacking people because they have a different opinion is unprofessional - and against PMI's own Code of Ethics.
...
2 replies by Daire Guiney and Phil Akinwale
Feb 26, 2020 2:06 PM
Daire Guiney
...
Dear George,

The whole debate has been around the change in approach being taken with regards how PMI structures PMBOK V7 and what content is included.

Why would PMI want to release a book when the content has already being cover in version 7 and previous editions of the book. The whole idea of releasing a new version is because you have some new, diiferent, relevant, more recent and interesting to say so that there is an uptake in those who wish to purchase the book and implement its teachings.

Daire
Jun 27, 2020 12:48 AM
Phil Akinwale
...
I agree George. Very myopic indeed. I am a project manager and that is my passion. I have worked in a variety of industries from lightweight to heavy weight. There are a number of PMs who have been in the industry for a while and some who are more recent and both camps are irked by PMI's lack of stakeholder engagement and arrogance/ignorance towards its stakeholders. Mark my words. It will lead to the end of an era and that will be unfortunate after all the work put in to the PMI by the sweat of volunteers.
avatar
Dave Violette Retired| Duke Energy Corporation Mooresville, Nc, United States
Feb 25, 2020 5:17 PM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
...
Some state that PMI should have put the full PMBoK ed7 draft for review and not just 'the standard'.

Fact is, it always was only 'the standard' as exposure draft, since this step is required for standards to be accepted by ANSI. Just checked the exposure draft of ed6: it had 24 pages.
Actually Thomas there were 2 exposure drafts with the Sixth Edition update. One for The Standard of Project Management and the other for the PMBOK(R) Guide - Sixth Edition.

At the time PMI was attempting to speed up the process for developing standards and guides. You are correct that the ANSI process requires a full exposure draft for Standards. This does not extend to Guides. However, with the Sixth Edition update when PMI was considering they would only expose the Standard, the PMI Board felt this change would be too large and insisted that bot documents go through exposure draft. The released the Standard first, then the Guide later. There were many comments against the Standard asking what happened to the Knowledge Areas, the Tools & Techniques, the front chapters, etc. The Standard does not contain this content. From these comments you can see the PM community expected to see the PMBOK(R) Guide, not just the Standard. This problem has been around since the Third Edition because everyone was thinking the entire PMBOK(R) Guide was the Standard. It is not and never has been since the Third Edition.
...
1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Feb 26, 2020 10:57 AM
Thomas Walenta
...
Thanks, Dave, for correcting me.
I was no longer aware of that and just found the 24 pages for the standard.

Still, would we expect then that PMI might publish a second draft for the Guide itself, as they did for ed6?
avatar
Thomas Walenta Global Project Economy Expert Hackenheim, Germany
Feb 26, 2020 10:46 AM
Replying to Dave Violette
...
Actually Thomas there were 2 exposure drafts with the Sixth Edition update. One for The Standard of Project Management and the other for the PMBOK(R) Guide - Sixth Edition.

At the time PMI was attempting to speed up the process for developing standards and guides. You are correct that the ANSI process requires a full exposure draft for Standards. This does not extend to Guides. However, with the Sixth Edition update when PMI was considering they would only expose the Standard, the PMI Board felt this change would be too large and insisted that bot documents go through exposure draft. The released the Standard first, then the Guide later. There were many comments against the Standard asking what happened to the Knowledge Areas, the Tools & Techniques, the front chapters, etc. The Standard does not contain this content. From these comments you can see the PM community expected to see the PMBOK(R) Guide, not just the Standard. This problem has been around since the Third Edition because everyone was thinking the entire PMBOK(R) Guide was the Standard. It is not and never has been since the Third Edition.
Thanks, Dave, for correcting me.
I was no longer aware of that and just found the 24 pages for the standard.

Still, would we expect then that PMI might publish a second draft for the Guide itself, as they did for ed6?
avatar
Dave Violette Retired| Duke Energy Corporation Mooresville, Nc, United States
This whole point is one point that is distressing me. With PMI going back to making the Standard the first three chapters in the Guide, they will be regressing back to the old problem of people confusing The Standard for Project Management with the PMBOK(R) Guide. With the Sixth Edition they finally broke that paradigm.

It is sort of like the debate over process groups. Ever since they were first formulated with the 1996 Edition of the PMBOK(R) Guide they have constantly promoted that the process groups are NOT a life cycle. Just look at the amount of text in each subsequent edition devoted to explaining process groups are not life cycles. The PM community still thinks the opposite.
...
2 replies by RAMESH PB and Thomas Walenta
Feb 26, 2020 11:22 AM
Thomas Walenta
...
Agree, Dave,

about that deep misunderstanding process group vs. life cycle.

If you understand this correctly, you will see that PMBoK promotes an iterative sequence of PM process, and not any waterfall and supports agile life-cycles perfectly.

See also
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pmis-pmbok-...nta-pmi-fellow/

Not sure if putting the standard in front again is a bad thing. The new standard differs significantly from the previous ones, it will have less overlap with the Guide and should be even supportive in understanding the framework/principles first before diving in.
Feb 29, 2020 4:35 AM
RAMESH PB
...
Dave,
This link really helps understand the context of PMBOK7 revison.

https://www.projectmanagement.com/videos/6...-and-Revolution

Its gonna be a light weight version. But I agree that the Guide needs a review, not just the standard.
avatar
Thomas Walenta Global Project Economy Expert Hackenheim, Germany
Feb 26, 2020 11:10 AM
Replying to Dave Violette
...
This whole point is one point that is distressing me. With PMI going back to making the Standard the first three chapters in the Guide, they will be regressing back to the old problem of people confusing The Standard for Project Management with the PMBOK(R) Guide. With the Sixth Edition they finally broke that paradigm.

It is sort of like the debate over process groups. Ever since they were first formulated with the 1996 Edition of the PMBOK(R) Guide they have constantly promoted that the process groups are NOT a life cycle. Just look at the amount of text in each subsequent edition devoted to explaining process groups are not life cycles. The PM community still thinks the opposite.
Agree, Dave,

about that deep misunderstanding process group vs. life cycle.

If you understand this correctly, you will see that PMBoK promotes an iterative sequence of PM process, and not any waterfall and supports agile life-cycles perfectly.

See also
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pmis-pmbok-...nta-pmi-fellow/

Not sure if putting the standard in front again is a bad thing. The new standard differs significantly from the previous ones, it will have less overlap with the Guide and should be even supportive in understanding the framework/principles first before diving in.
avatar
Daire Guiney Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Feb 26, 2020 10:34 AM
Replying to George Jucan
...
Daire, your generalization "The project managers who seem to have a problem with PMBOK V7 are the ones who are using the standard and framework as their centerpiece for their experience and training in project management." is either very simplistic or offensive for those that dare to raise their voice against a move imposed from PMI offices.

I do not have a training business, I'm a practitioner that delivered successful programs of over 100M in IT - my experience is in the field, not in the classroom. I also dedicate my time to contributing back to the profession - including participating in standards development (just open any PMBOK written this century and you'll find my name in the appendix).

And I also have a problem with the new Standard as exposed for public comments - and not with PMBOK 7 as the actual Guide was not even exposed for comments.

Comments about the topic of discussion are welcome, but attacking people because they have a different opinion is unprofessional - and against PMI's own Code of Ethics.
Dear George,

The whole debate has been around the change in approach being taken with regards how PMI structures PMBOK V7 and what content is included.

Why would PMI want to release a book when the content has already being cover in version 7 and previous editions of the book. The whole idea of releasing a new version is because you have some new, diiferent, relevant, more recent and interesting to say so that there is an uptake in those who wish to purchase the book and implement its teachings.

Daire
...
1 reply by George Jucan
Feb 27, 2020 4:02 PM
George Jucan
...
Hi Daire,

That's a good argument for books and articles, not for standards - one of the main attributes of standards is consistency. Standards evolve, don't get reinvented... what if the metric system gets reinvented, or the voltage changes on your power line?

In fact, the "new, diiferent, relevant, more recent and interesting" argument goes against your previous assertion that the ones complaining are the trainers... trainers would love the change, gives them more business because everyone now will need training on the new approach...
< 1 ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ... 14 >

Please login or join to reply

Content ID:
ADVERTISEMENTS

"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."

- Pablo Picasso

ADVERTISEMENT

Sponsors