NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 2:32 AM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Nohely
I think you should use this new version of the guide in conjunction with the 6th edition. The 7th edition doesn't replace the previous one at least in this release. This is my opinion.
RK
Ok ok, thats good point! So I have to still use The 6th edition . PMBOK7 doesn't replace the previous one . I mean... if I were someone starting the profession, where I have find the guide to follow for accomplish a project first time? Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 2:32 AM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Nohely
I think you should use this new version of the guide in conjunction with the 6th edition. The 7th edition doesn't replace the previous one at least in this release. This is my opinion.
RK
Thanks Rami Kaibni, I really appreciate your help! Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 4:23 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
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Agree with the scepticism of my valued colleagues Sergio and Rami.
I do not think that ed 7 can be used as the base of organisational PM methods as previous edition have. So the value of ed 7 for organisations has lowered (2nd most important stakeholder dissatisfied).
Organizations look for methods and process. Methods normally include steps, sequences and interdependencies which have been widely eliminated and also cannot be found easily (if at all) in PMstandards+.
I do not share Sergio's hope that there is a wider forward strategy beneath this new concept. I rather think it was a defensive move to tackle some of the problems with ed 6 like size, inclusion of agile, changes of ISO to principles and more, quickly.
Well, for PMP exam takers it gets more difficult. In the past, relying on PMBoK gave you a good chance of passing although the ECO is leading (but was aligned with PMBoK). Now the PMBoK is totally different from ECO and candidates have no chance reading ed 6 AND 7, as Rami suggests. (1st most important stakeholder dissatisfied).
Thomas
Thomas..Thank you! that was I thought ..this statement its a key point :
"Organizations look for methods and process. Methods normally include steps, sequences and interdependencies which have been widely eliminated and also cannot be found easily (if at all) in PMstandards+."
I did ,explore the PMstandards+ , I found for some topics , It brought to me Guide6th 's process !!.
¿Where Dou you recomend to start if I try to teach someoneelse about proyect Management based on PMI approach?
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1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Jul 21, 2021 5:45 AM
Thomas Walenta
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Nohely, I share your confusion.
The 'PMI approach' seems to me a bit more fuzzy with ed7 and ed6 still recommended by some. PMPs should learn along ECO, now different from both, not helpful. Also isolated offerings for starting with PM like Kickoff or PM Ready (by PMIEF) seem not be fully aligned with either PMBoK edition nor the ECO. DA comes on top with its own approach. Also the 3 upcoming construction certs do.
So, I conclude there is no single PMI approach for projects anymore. And - yes - I am still struggling what to show to my students. One option is the PMP ATP course deck, which is not available publicly.
Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 7:46 AM
Replying to Thomas Walenta
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Hi Kiron,
yes, 2.3 is a good chapter in ed7 to explain the project workflow, regarding the product or industry.
In ed6 this is explained in 1.2.4, shorter, and in addition it refers to the workflow for the project manager and team, the PM processes, which are seen in PMBoK since 1996 as separate from life cycles (otherwise we could not try to see PM as a industry agnostic knowledge and capability). Good further example of this is Integration management.
I understood that Nohely asked for this PM related workflow which I did not yet find in ed7.
Thomas
Exactly, thanks again! Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 8:08 AM
Replying to Abolfazl Yousefi Darestani
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We may need to get used to this. Do not get me wrong. I am not saying the new approach is worse or better. I am saying get used to something makes it the best one in our mind!
Okay, I understand. Thank you.
What I want to understand is how to use what we have to start a project in real life. I work with different projects, different life cycles. I also teach new project managers and I'm trying to understand and put the puzzle together. Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 10:42 AM
Replying to Israrul Haque
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Why Confused, its a perfect time to start, plan, execute and close.
Thank you Israrul. ¿For you using this 7 guide , its clear follow a init-planning-execution-check strategy for accomplish any project?
Regards (without the guide or other reference documents) Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 8:22 AM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
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I will not use this guide at all. It has no sense. Just to comment, I was part of other groups such as Scrum Guide or DSDM creation or IIBA BABOK creation and in a point this type of things have been debated. I mean to create or not things based on principles only. And in some cases the change was the start to "take an organization out of the market". Mainly because the final result was inapplicable for lot of domains. Principles stated in new PMBOK sounds like a joke in the context that most of the people will agree with that. Nothing new. But to apply them or not is a matter of context . If you need need more abstraction to define the project management process then you can find it inside the Context Outline document which is used to create the exam questions and exists from long time ago. In a point, I agree with @Thomas comment about this version can be consider a defensive move. The key thing here is to define if a guide is something that can be used in strategy, tactic or technical field inside the organizations. In this case, in my humble opinion, the new PMBOK is in the middle of everything and in the case I think is unusable. Now, I understand why there was not a public review of the guide and why lot of people were not accepted as author or reviewer. In my humble opinion the PMI has to start the process to explain how the new guide can be used with other components inside the PMI literature to apply it at all levels at least in critical domains like construction, health, etc. In software, it is obvious because unfortunately in the last years, starting for the agile guide, the PMI work has a lot of focus in that domain.
Sergio,
Just for those of us who run organizations, I would like to be clear about this:
"The key thing here is to define if a guide is something that can be used in strategy, tactic or technical field inside the organizations"
thanks ! Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 12:11 PM
Replying to Aaron Porter
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I haven't finished reviewing v7, yet, but looking at the graphic on page xiii, I'm okay with changing the emphasis from the 5 process groups to 12 project management principles. Coworkers have gotten upset with me because I don't treat the process groups as phases.
Yes, I use Initiation, Planning, Executing, and Closing as phases on some projects, but Monitoring & Controlling is not a distinct phase. This process group represents processes that are performed across all phases.
Peers have also tried to argue with me because I treat the PMBOK Guide as a guide, not a bible; information in the PMBOK should be scaled based on the needs of the project and organization. I've led a few successful projects, and none of them needed the PMBOK Guide to be applied 100%. Trying to do so probably would have killed the schedule.
My point, if there is one, is that the PMBOK is a Guide; it doesn't change your project lifecycle. Understand what is in it so that you can determine which parts you need for your projects. Another way to think of it might be a philosophy that influences my approach to new situations: understand the rules and the reasons for them, so you know which rules you can safely break and how to apply the rules you need.
Aaron,
,
I totally agree with you that PMBOK is not the bible, and you could tailor your project to the specific process and method and techniques you need. No problem with that at all.
I have managed hybrid, agile, predictive (oil and gas) projects and have adjusted the processes according to the need of the organization and the project.
My confusion is about the use of the guide, could be it used as the base of organisational PM methods ?
Thank !
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2 replies by Aaron Porter and NOHELY COLINA
Jul 21, 2021 11:28 AM
Aaron Porter
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Which part of v6 do you use as the base of organizational PM methods, today?
I brought up that there is a difference between phases and process groups because you asked the question, "...don't we start, plan, execute, and close?" We do, and this hasn't changed.
I'm glad you brought up tailoring. The following information, from v7, is similar to information contained in v6.
_____
In the Glossary, p. 245 - "Project Life Cycle. The series of phases that a project passes through from its start to completion."
Deciding on a life cycle and the phases of the life cycle is an example of tailoring. p.134
Section 3.5, Tailoring the Performance Domains, begins on page 145. On page 148, in 3.5.3, Development Approach and Life Cycle, the following questions are presented as questions you should ask when tailoring a project life cycle.
- What is an appropriate life cycle for this specific project?
- What phases should comprise the project life cycle?
On page 170, 4.2.7.4 Process Groups, "Groups of processes are not project phases. The Process Groups interact within each phase of a project life cycle. It is possible that all of these processes could occur within a single phase. Processes may be iterated within a phase or life cycle."
_____
Both versions emphasize life cycles. Neither version defines which phases a project should have. In both versions, you define the life cycle, the phases, and when to start, plan, execute, and close the project.
So, yes, I think v7 can be used as a foundation in the same sense as v6. A foundation is something you build upon, not the definitive source of all things project management. That being said, I have not compared both versions to identify what is "not" in v7 that was in v6. If there is something in v6 that you need, I doubt PMI would have a problem with using it.
Jul 21, 2021 12:23 PM
NOHELY COLINA
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Thank you Aaron for taking the time to detail the key pages and sections of guide 7. I have re-read them, I got your point.
"Both versions emphasize life cycles. Neither version defines which phases a project should have. In both versions, you define the life cycle, the phases, and when to start, plan, execute, and close the project"
I have no confusion between the projet phases, or PLC, or process group. Its pretty clear to me.
What probably scare me its using two guides and sure three (agile guide) . Especially when you have to create material to teach new leaders, directors, or digital project managers. ...new times..new waves! Thanks again, keep in touch! I would like to continue sharing experiences in the use of v7.
Saving Changes...
NOHELY COLINALider de Proyecto| PETROPIARLecheria, Anzoategui, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)
Jul 20, 2021 8:08 AM
Replying to Abolfazl Yousefi Darestani
...
We may need to get used to this. Do not get me wrong. I am not saying the new approach is worse or better. I am saying get used to something makes it the best one in our mind!
Thank you Abolfazl Yousefi Darestani. Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Jul 20, 2021 10:26 PM
Replying to NOHELY COLINA
...
Thomas..Thank you! that was I thought ..this statement its a key point :
"Organizations look for methods and process. Methods normally include steps, sequences and interdependencies which have been widely eliminated and also cannot be found easily (if at all) in PMstandards+."
I did ,explore the PMstandards+ , I found for some topics , It brought to me Guide6th 's process !!.
¿Where Dou you recomend to start if I try to teach someoneelse about proyect Management based on PMI approach?
Nohely, I share your confusion.
The 'PMI approach' seems to me a bit more fuzzy with ed7 and ed6 still recommended by some. PMPs should learn along ECO, now different from both, not helpful. Also isolated offerings for starting with PM like Kickoff or PM Ready (by PMIEF) seem not be fully aligned with either PMBoK edition nor the ECO. DA comes on top with its own approach. Also the 3 upcoming construction certs do.
So, I conclude there is no single PMI approach for projects anymore. And - yes - I am still struggling what to show to my students. One option is the PMP ATP course deck, which is not available publicly.
...
1 reply by NOHELY COLINA
Jul 21, 2021 11:48 AM
NOHELY COLINA
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Thomas, I really apreciatte your shared points. thank you!!