We started a new program with an IT vendor, and we have an MSA/SOW in-place for Time and Expense Billing (monthly). Our goal is to track actual monthly expenses vs. estimated monthly expenses, for the next 1-yr.
Actual Expenses - In an ideal world, we'd want the vendor to provide monthly actuals broken out by:
actual hours worked per person x total cost per person x resource utilization by project.
Our vendor is reluctant to give us any break-out, whatsoever. They want to provide us with a single dollar amount that they will bill us every month. Is this normal? Are we being unreasonable?
Estimated Expenses - We asked for their staffing projections broken out in the same way for the next 1 year. They've said they cannot do it. Our hunch is that they want to keep their margin as obscure from us as possible, but again, I'd like your feedback on if you think this is unreasonable. Saving Changes...
Asking for that kind of data sends a message that you are going to try and micromanage the project yourself and add a lot of overhead burden that can greatly reduce the efficiency of the performing project team.
Government projects do often require far more cost transparency, but that comes with a burden of much higher costs to provide that level of data. Many businesses and private contractors won't bother to work for government agencies for that reason. When they do, they add on a large premium for the effort and may even spin-off whole business divisions.
If I was asked to provide actuals by person with their individual pay rates I would flatly refuse. That's what our functional managers are for. I would give you hours of work performed and the burdened labor rate for which I am charging you. I'm not going to explain why certain people work more or less hours in a given week and why some get paid more than others.
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1 reply by Kwiyuh Michael Wepngong
Nov 22, 2023 5:07 AM
Kwiyuh Michael Wepngong
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Thanks for this insight
Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Thanks. For this statement: "I would give you hours of work performed and the burdened labor rate for which I am charging you..."
Would you give the TOTAL hours of work performed X blended average burdened labor rate? We'd be asking for the same thing (not an individual's pay rate) but broken down by person. It's a multi-million dollar program so the monthly cost is significant and needs to be tracked/reported.
Isn't there some burden of proof on the vendor to keep track of real hours worked and provide us with real costs since it is a Time and Expense Project? Note: In the past, I've been on large programs where we've all had to do timesheets for this reason.
I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks! Saving Changes...
Financial Management Specialist | US Peace CorpsYaounde, Centre, Cameroon
Nov 22, 2023 12:05 AM
Replying to Keith Novak
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Asking for that kind of data sends a message that you are going to try and micromanage the project yourself and add a lot of overhead burden that can greatly reduce the efficiency of the performing project team.
Government projects do often require far more cost transparency, but that comes with a burden of much higher costs to provide that level of data. Many businesses and private contractors won't bother to work for government agencies for that reason. When they do, they add on a large premium for the effort and may even spin-off whole business divisions.
If I was asked to provide actuals by person with their individual pay rates I would flatly refuse. That's what our functional managers are for. I would give you hours of work performed and the burdened labor rate for which I am charging you. I'm not going to explain why certain people work more or less hours in a given week and why some get paid more than others.
Why do you want to see it by each vendor's team member? If there is a contract in place with the vendor, they are responsible for specific deliverables, so manage to those. If there is an estimated cost per deliverable, you can certainly control costs without the need to crawl into the details of individual vendor staff.
I've been on both sides of the client-vendor model for multiple technology projects in both public and private sector and have never seen a situation where that granularity of information was shared with the client. I do work in North America, so the situation might be different elsewhere.
Kiron
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1 reply by anonymous
Nov 22, 2023 12:33 PM
anonymous
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Thanks Kiron. For some more context: -Framework is agile -Program is in North America -Software development -Vendor cannot give us an estimated cost per deliverable -Vendor cannot give us an estimated cost per month
In your experience (and for everyone else on the thread), the consensus seems to be that we're asking too much. I can see that, even though I tend to lean towards Rami's point-of-view.
If I can re-phrase things: What would be a 'reasonable' ask for a monthly budget (forecasted out for the next 1-yr)? Assuming the vendor won't be able to split the cost out by deliverable, would it just be 'total estimated cost per month'?
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
My view is probably a bit different than my fellow colleagues: I’ve worked in many places over the world, including North America, and on all of our construction projects, any packages that are based on Time, Labour and Material billing, the vendor is obligated to provide the following based on our request:
1) Number of labours 2) Hourly Rate per labour 3) Estimate for the total hour required 4) During monthly billing, they should breakdown all hours per person
For fixed price and cost plus contracts, the situation is different. Saving Changes...
There are differences between project types and probably global location/culture, but in my experience with various aspects of aerospace, reporting to the client at the individual employee level would be a rare exception. In a large matrix organization, that is a balance between mitigating the risk of inaccurate charging, and a much higher burdened rate of micromanagement to avoid the risk.
At a law firm for example, the senior and junior partners, associates, and paralegals all bill directly to a project and at very different rates. By contrast, at an engineering firm with many specialties, our department of 1000 professionals will use the same billable rate for the new-hire as the 35-year veteran. It may be broken out into some major skill types and a few individuals like a specialty consultant. Within a skill code with one rate, the client doesn’t get to insist I use all our highest skill/rate employees on their projects, the lowest paid employees, or argue why there is a large disparity between the senior and junior employee.
Everyone must record their time by project in our system. The PM and functional managers are responsible for ensuring the right people doing the work and accurate charging at the employee level. Charging is rolled up to various tiers in the org. structure for reporting but not individually unless we think we detect a problem.
Time at the individual level generally only shows that some people spend much of their time on a project, while others like their team lead charge occasionally. It rarely shows much actionable information except to a client who wants to argue about every dollar at a cost of 2 more dollars. Part of the contracting process should be ensuring that the vendor is reputable enough that excessive costly oversight is not necessary.
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Nov 22, 2023 12:07 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Keith, I don't disagree that it differs from industry to another, project to another and one client to another. I was sharing my own experience in those types of situations working in the Middle East, Far East and North America as well!
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Nov 22, 2023 12:03 PM
Replying to Keith Novak
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There are differences between project types and probably global location/culture, but in my experience with various aspects of aerospace, reporting to the client at the individual employee level would be a rare exception. In a large matrix organization, that is a balance between mitigating the risk of inaccurate charging, and a much higher burdened rate of micromanagement to avoid the risk.
At a law firm for example, the senior and junior partners, associates, and paralegals all bill directly to a project and at very different rates. By contrast, at an engineering firm with many specialties, our department of 1000 professionals will use the same billable rate for the new-hire as the 35-year veteran. It may be broken out into some major skill types and a few individuals like a specialty consultant. Within a skill code with one rate, the client doesn’t get to insist I use all our highest skill/rate employees on their projects, the lowest paid employees, or argue why there is a large disparity between the senior and junior employee.
Everyone must record their time by project in our system. The PM and functional managers are responsible for ensuring the right people doing the work and accurate charging at the employee level. Charging is rolled up to various tiers in the org. structure for reporting but not individually unless we think we detect a problem.
Time at the individual level generally only shows that some people spend much of their time on a project, while others like their team lead charge occasionally. It rarely shows much actionable information except to a client who wants to argue about every dollar at a cost of 2 more dollars. Part of the contracting process should be ensuring that the vendor is reputable enough that excessive costly oversight is not necessary.
Keith, I don't disagree that it differs from industry to another, project to another and one client to another. I was sharing my own experience in those types of situations working in the Middle East, Far East and North America as well!
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1 reply by Keith Novak
Nov 22, 2023 12:20 PM
Keith Novak
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Not disagreeing at all Rami. As you know, the answers to many of the most interesting questions start with "It depends." The different perspectives are why there can be many considerations before choosing T&M, FFP, and everything in between. Cheers!
Keith, I don't disagree that it differs from industry to another, project to another and one client to another. I was sharing my own experience in those types of situations working in the Middle East, Far East and North America as well!
Not disagreeing at all Rami. As you know, the answers to many of the most interesting questions start with "It depends." The different perspectives are why there can be many considerations before choosing T&M, FFP, and everything in between. Cheers!
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Nov 22, 2023 1:01 PM
Rami Kaibni
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We are on the same page, Keith. Cheers!
Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Nov 22, 2023 7:37 AM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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Why do you want to see it by each vendor's team member? If there is a contract in place with the vendor, they are responsible for specific deliverables, so manage to those. If there is an estimated cost per deliverable, you can certainly control costs without the need to crawl into the details of individual vendor staff.
I've been on both sides of the client-vendor model for multiple technology projects in both public and private sector and have never seen a situation where that granularity of information was shared with the client. I do work in North America, so the situation might be different elsewhere.
Kiron
Thanks Kiron. For some more context: -Framework is agile -Program is in North America -Software development -Vendor cannot give us an estimated cost per deliverable -Vendor cannot give us an estimated cost per month
In your experience (and for everyone else on the thread), the consensus seems to be that we're asking too much. I can see that, even though I tend to lean towards Rami's point-of-view.
If I can re-phrase things: What would be a 'reasonable' ask for a monthly budget (forecasted out for the next 1-yr)? Assuming the vendor won't be able to split the cost out by deliverable, would it just be 'total estimated cost per month'?
Thanks all!
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1 reply by Kiron Bondale
Nov 22, 2023 5:45 PM
Kiron Bondale
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If they are delivering in an adaptive manner, I'd hope they would have a dedicated team working on your product. If they do, their daily labor cost is fixed. I can understand the hesitation around a cost per deliverable given the scope flexibility of an adaptive approach and the evolving nature of the requirements. However, based on a fixed per day/sprint rate, it is possible to determine your monthly cost and you could ask them to look at a fixed release schedule whereby any work items which are completed and verified prior to a release date will become part of the upcoming release. For example, you could have monthly releases with completed content slotted in for the next month's release.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Nov 22, 2023 12:20 PM
Replying to Keith Novak
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Not disagreeing at all Rami. As you know, the answers to many of the most interesting questions start with "It depends." The different perspectives are why there can be many considerations before choosing T&M, FFP, and everything in between. Cheers!
We are on the same page, Keith. Cheers! Saving Changes...