Melissa GoecksRockwell AutomationMequon, Wisconsin, United States
How do you point dependencies and queue time in agile burnup charts? If wait periods or dependencies aren't incorporated, the project plan will not estimate the overall schedule accurately. How have you handled this successfully? This is for a hardware project, not a software project. Saving Changes...
dependencies should be reflected in the prioritization of items in a backlog - if item B depends on item A, item B should be further down the backlog. You wouldn't assign points for the dependency as there's no effort or complexity related to the dependency, just timing. The same would apply for lags.
If the team has decided to use a Definition of Ready approach for pulling work items off the backlog, then they might have guidelines such as "Have all dependencies been satisfied?".
Kiron
...
1 reply by Melissa Goecks
Jan 09, 2025 10:45 AM
Melissa Goecks
...
Thank you Kiron! I have a few follow-up questions if you would be willing to help!
If item A (an outside dependency) has no points, how will I know when item B (inside effort) will be finished? The x axis is dates; right? So if no points are assigned, the velocity may make it appear that they will be finished sooner than expected. Or can you not use a burnup to plan a schedule? Thanks again!
Saving Changes...
Melissa GoecksRockwell AutomationMequon, Wisconsin, United States
Jan 08, 2025 3:43 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
...
Melissa -
dependencies should be reflected in the prioritization of items in a backlog - if item B depends on item A, item B should be further down the backlog. You wouldn't assign points for the dependency as there's no effort or complexity related to the dependency, just timing. The same would apply for lags.
If the team has decided to use a Definition of Ready approach for pulling work items off the backlog, then they might have guidelines such as "Have all dependencies been satisfied?".
Kiron
Thank you Kiron! I have a few follow-up questions if you would be willing to help!
If item A (an outside dependency) has no points, how will I know when item B (inside effort) will be finished? The x axis is dates; right? So if no points are assigned, the velocity may make it appear that they will be finished sooner than expected. Or can you not use a burnup to plan a schedule? Thanks again! Saving Changes...
Dependencies are the bane of agile planning. I'll assume your team is following Scrum since you are using burnup/burndown charts & velocity. If so, pulling any work item into a sprint which has an external dependency is a risk as there is no guarantee the dependency would be completed before the end of the sprint. As such, a better strategy is to have the team only pull those items which are good to go and have someone looking ahead to future work items near the top of the backlog and chasing down the external dependencies to see if they will be ready in time for the next sprint (or the one after that).
If you are being truly agile, I would consider alternatives to rigorous deterministic planning methods.
When I consider agile principles such as: Working Software is the Primary Measure of Progress (also holds true for hardware), I question the need to have extremely precise metrics.
When I am striving to be efficient through reducing bureaucracy, I create metrics that support my explanation of what is behind them rather than expecting anyone who reads a chart understands everything behind it. For example, when using EVM, I always expect SPI to lag behind plan when it takes credit for work at completion rather than constantly updating percentage complete. By talking with the team and understanding the underlying situation, I can easily explain why showing slightly behind is exactly what we expect when performing to plan.
...
1 reply by Melissa Goecks
Jan 15, 2025 10:20 AM
Melissa Goecks
...
Our organization is trying out a hybrid approach, but we are slowly adopting some agile methodologies. That is what makes it hard to do a "truly agile" project here. We are also being held to pretty tight timelines and commitments. Once we commit to a date, they hold us to that, even though they also want to go "agile". That is what makes this a challenge. Any more advice on this would be appreicated!
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Perhaps I did not understand your post but let me say that in the post there are a mix of things. First of all, you can use burnup charts with any type of approach. It is not exclusive for agile approach. The key point for burn up charts is what you are representing in the X axis but mainly what you are representing in the Y axis. Mainly is time in the X axis and work in the Y axis. In the case of work, the unit of measure matters a lot. That´s all. Dependencies are things totally outside the burnup chart. They are visualizing in other graph or any type of artifact you will use and the results of manage them will impact in the time/work that will be the input of burnup chart. The same with risks. In fact, in some cases, dependencies are manage as risks. With all that said, having a project plan and a project schedule will depends on the approach you are using. Usually, if you are using agile approach, you will not have those artifacts. Saving Changes...
Melissa GoecksRockwell AutomationMequon, Wisconsin, United States
Jan 09, 2025 2:09 PM
Replying to Keith Novak
...
If you are being truly agile, I would consider alternatives to rigorous deterministic planning methods.
When I consider agile principles such as: Working Software is the Primary Measure of Progress (also holds true for hardware), I question the need to have extremely precise metrics.
When I am striving to be efficient through reducing bureaucracy, I create metrics that support my explanation of what is behind them rather than expecting anyone who reads a chart understands everything behind it. For example, when using EVM, I always expect SPI to lag behind plan when it takes credit for work at completion rather than constantly updating percentage complete. By talking with the team and understanding the underlying situation, I can easily explain why showing slightly behind is exactly what we expect when performing to plan.
Our organization is trying out a hybrid approach, but we are slowly adopting some agile methodologies. That is what makes it hard to do a "truly agile" project here. We are also being held to pretty tight timelines and commitments. Once we commit to a date, they hold us to that, even though they also want to go "agile". That is what makes this a challenge. Any more advice on this would be appreicated!
...
1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Jan 15, 2025 12:55 PM
Sergio Luis Conte
...
The point to consider is: hybrid does not exist. Agile is an approach. You can use it with any type of life cycle. The problem is the confusion outside there between approach (lean, agile, etc), life cycle (waterfall, ierative-incremental, etc), method, tools. This is not because I am saying that. Just in case you are talking the software domain you can find this in papers write by Tom Gilb (EVO Method) that was "the father" of agile applied to software using any type of life cycle (waterfall for example).
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Jan 15, 2025 10:20 AM
Replying to Melissa Goecks
...
Our organization is trying out a hybrid approach, but we are slowly adopting some agile methodologies. That is what makes it hard to do a "truly agile" project here. We are also being held to pretty tight timelines and commitments. Once we commit to a date, they hold us to that, even though they also want to go "agile". That is what makes this a challenge. Any more advice on this would be appreicated!
The point to consider is: hybrid does not exist. Agile is an approach. You can use it with any type of life cycle. The problem is the confusion outside there between approach (lean, agile, etc), life cycle (waterfall, ierative-incremental, etc), method, tools. This is not because I am saying that. Just in case you are talking the software domain you can find this in papers write by Tom Gilb (EVO Method) that was "the father" of agile applied to software using any type of life cycle (waterfall for example). Saving Changes...
RAMESH PBAuthorised Training Partner - PMI for PMP & PMI-ACP| educationChennai, Tamil Nadu, India
Dependency I think is not normal "work" and should not reflect on burn charts. But see if you can create a dedicated lane for Dependencies while freeing WIP in regular lanes for the items moved. If you have time you can create sub lanes for Under Resolution and REsolution with Dependencides and track cumulative numbers using a Dependency Resolution chart like we use in Defect REsolution charts. If you have some more time see if you can perform ageing analysis for Under resolution items like upto 2 days, upto week and above a week. If you have some more time you can do throughput analysis for Resolved Lane for deriving cycle time for resolution. Most imporant: communicate this to stakeholders in yoru daily scrum report (I hope you must be having one.) Hope this works. Let us know. Saving Changes...
To reinforce what the others have said, Melissa, I'll say the situation you've described cannot be handled successfully. Your executives have put you into a no-win situation. New product development is inherently impossible to predict. Indeed, holding such a project to a deadline is inherently anti-innovation, since it instills fear of experimentation. I recommend you protect yourself and your team members by going back to waterfall until your executives adopt the Agile Mindset. It will be equally unsuccessful at producing predictable results, but reduce the stress of shoving a square peg in a round hole. Saving Changes...