Steven ZacharyDirector| Alberta Health ServicesCalgary, Alberta, Canada
Dec 30, 2015 8:13 AM
Replying to Erik Iglesias Abella
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1. for the companies where I track the BA environment for a longer time, there is very often a sinusoidal movement, where it goes from centralized CoE to decentralized CoP and visceversa ... it is about objectives, number of projects vs. internal resources etc ... What I see at least the last 5 years in my close environment (banks, telco, utilities in CZ, SK...) is that continuously fails any convergence with (any) enterprise / business / process / functional architecture ... as the "mode" word "agile" is often miss-understood, or miss-used... and because continuously using external BA suppliers (the best for each project another) kills any possibility to manage it.
2. yes ... "just enough documentation" can be and is a symptom always, but actually what I see is in small projects / companies an opposite phenomen of more quick analysis without any documentation :-) just enough to verbally say to programmers / IT / supplier, what is expected/required... fortunately here the ultimate objective of Business analysis IS still NOT (ONLY) documenting ... but in the era of "agile/Scrum" it is going to very extreme situations. Still it is critical to identify customer/business needs for the project, and thus business analysis is still very needed ... Of course: a good PM or business/solution architect still is necessary to control the level/extension/granularity of the needed documentation ("what is enough to start?") ...
3. As Sergio said, I dont see any impact of PMI in the BA maturity... BA exists a really long-time and has his own challenges, techniques, knowledge, issues ... PMI could (in the future) give visibility, but still I think that these 2 capabilities (Business Analysis/Architecture, and Portfolio/Program/Project/PMO mgmt) as to be very clearly separated and defined (very narrowly cooperating, but clearly separate). The "sponsor" or "champion" for giving higher maturity still has to be an organization that has as his highest objective really BAA, (IIBA ...).
PMI I think that has to focus in continuous improvement of the PM capability maturity ... Projects without analysis and architecture are a chaos, Architecture without managed changes (projects) are a chimera...
4. Amen with Sergios response: Even when my business architects needed to have a very mature knowledge of the org data architecture and for analyzing business entities and contexts, the data architecture is really a service and a role with different target(s) and thus deliverables. Still it doesnt mean that in small orgs, the business analyst/architect can not do also a role of "information/data architect" ...
Of course ... there is still a vague frontier between business/process analyst, and system/IT analyst ... increased within the role of "business systems analyst" ... and it is about the work approach and the culture of the organization (and why not, their number of analysis "resources" :-)
Outstanding post, I could talk on each post for hours!
The one point I'd like to focus on is BA maturity. I have to disagree that the BA practice won't benefit from PMI involvement. The increased competition alone will push both the PMI and IIBA to compete for lucrative certification dollars and as such pour more money in developing more and more comprehensive and innovative solutions. I am a big supporter of body of knowledge work because it brings smart people together to pool their knowledge. It's like having your own personal knowledge focus group. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Well, the key here is: what does means BA maturity?. Will we use the maturity model that we use for the organizations? Will we use the maturity model like CMMI and others?. I think the key is determine how we will meassure BA maturity. I think is a great point to debate so I really appreciate your initiative @Steven because, unfortunatelly, I do not see this debate inside the IIBA. But about the PMI involvement benefits the BA practice I fully agree with you.
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1 reply by Steven Zachary
Dec 30, 2015 1:17 PM
Steven Zachary
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Great point Sergio. I think there are many ways to measure the BA Maturity. But it's finding out the most appropriate way. A intimidating but definitely doable task. You mention CMMI as one, I think BAs should look at moving more to the requirements engineering approach and away from the scribe methods.
As a program supervisor, what do you look for as a successful business analyst? What is a successful analyst to you?
Saving Changes...
Steven ZacharyDirector| Alberta Health ServicesCalgary, Alberta, Canada
Dec 30, 2015 1:05 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
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Well, the key here is: what does means BA maturity?. Will we use the maturity model that we use for the organizations? Will we use the maturity model like CMMI and others?. I think the key is determine how we will meassure BA maturity. I think is a great point to debate so I really appreciate your initiative @Steven because, unfortunatelly, I do not see this debate inside the IIBA. But about the PMI involvement benefits the BA practice I fully agree with you.
Great point Sergio. I think there are many ways to measure the BA Maturity. But it's finding out the most appropriate way. A intimidating but definitely doable task. You mention CMMI as one, I think BAs should look at moving more to the requirements engineering approach and away from the scribe methods.
As a program supervisor, what do you look for as a successful business analyst? What is a successful analyst to you?
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Dec 30, 2015 1:39 PM
Sergio Luis Conte
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To be honest, maturity is a point I did not work and I did not think up to date. Perhaps is a good point to work on in the future. About your question, I will write about I do and I did when I have to define what is success (in fact, organizations pay extra money related to success so while I fully dissgree about that I am not able to avoid that). To define sucess related to project management or business analysis depends on organization strategy. The key here is to understand that all related to product objectives are matter of business analysis and all related to project objectives are related to project mangement. I am exhaustid to fight againts things like "we will growth 5% in market share next year" to be assigned to project objectives. That is not project objectives. It is a product objective or goal
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Dec 30, 2015 1:17 PM
Replying to Steven Zachary
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Great point Sergio. I think there are many ways to measure the BA Maturity. But it's finding out the most appropriate way. A intimidating but definitely doable task. You mention CMMI as one, I think BAs should look at moving more to the requirements engineering approach and away from the scribe methods.
As a program supervisor, what do you look for as a successful business analyst? What is a successful analyst to you?
To be honest, maturity is a point I did not work and I did not think up to date. Perhaps is a good point to work on in the future. About your question, I will write about I do and I did when I have to define what is success (in fact, organizations pay extra money related to success so while I fully dissgree about that I am not able to avoid that). To define sucess related to project management or business analysis depends on organization strategy. The key here is to understand that all related to product objectives are matter of business analysis and all related to project objectives are related to project mangement. I am exhaustid to fight againts things like "we will growth 5% in market share next year" to be assigned to project objectives. That is not project objectives. It is a product objective or goal
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1 reply by Steven Zachary
Dec 30, 2015 1:44 PM
Steven Zachary
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Great points. Proper quantification, role identification and metrics helps a great deal. Best practices are a trciky thing. Best for who? From where? For what?
I think we should aim to collect a few of us to start talking about these in a sort of working group. Maybe through co-blog posts.
Saving Changes...
Steven ZacharyDirector| Alberta Health ServicesCalgary, Alberta, Canada
Dec 30, 2015 1:39 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
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To be honest, maturity is a point I did not work and I did not think up to date. Perhaps is a good point to work on in the future. About your question, I will write about I do and I did when I have to define what is success (in fact, organizations pay extra money related to success so while I fully dissgree about that I am not able to avoid that). To define sucess related to project management or business analysis depends on organization strategy. The key here is to understand that all related to product objectives are matter of business analysis and all related to project objectives are related to project mangement. I am exhaustid to fight againts things like "we will growth 5% in market share next year" to be assigned to project objectives. That is not project objectives. It is a product objective or goal
Great points. Proper quantification, role identification and metrics helps a great deal. Best practices are a trciky thing. Best for who? From where? For what?
I think we should aim to collect a few of us to start talking about these in a sort of working group. Maybe through co-blog posts. Saving Changes...
Stéphane ParentSelf Employed / Semi-retired| Leader MakerPrince Edward Island, Canada
I, too, believe there is a lot of common ground between project management and business analysis. When I read IIBA's BABOK®, there is quite a lot of similarity with PMI's PMBOK®.
I would say BA is a great background to have as a PM.
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1 reply by Steven Zachary
Dec 30, 2015 10:15 PM
Steven Zachary
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Thanks Stephane. I agree. There is a few webinars on this point as well.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
But take into account that business analyst and project manager are totally diferent roles and people who perform the roles must take totally diferent skills, while most of us have been performed both roles at the same time in most of the initiatives. Busines analyst focus is the whole solution but mainly in helping the organization in defining the product/service/result characteristics that must be created to put the organizational strategy into action. Project manager focus is the work needed to create the definided product/service/result and all related to that work definition, execution, control and close. Business anlyst work continues after the project is closed because business analyst is in charge to monitoring if the product/service/result is achieving the benefits stated into the busines case and, if not, a new loop starts to define what to do with the product/service/result.
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1 reply by Steven Zachary
Dec 30, 2015 10:17 PM
Steven Zachary
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Sergio,
Have you ever heard the story about the PM Ego Test. It goes like this. Get a PM to compare a BA and a PM. If the PM considers BA an inferior team member, or one that simply scribes, then he has "the ego". If he thinks the BA is on par with the PM he is likely a BA.... ;)
I'm going to open a discussion on the PM/BA combo again, I like that topic.
Saving Changes...
Steven ZacharyDirector| Alberta Health ServicesCalgary, Alberta, Canada
Dec 30, 2015 4:47 PM
Replying to Stéphane Parent
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I, too, believe there is a lot of common ground between project management and business analysis. When I read IIBA's BABOK®, there is quite a lot of similarity with PMI's PMBOK®.
I would say BA is a great background to have as a PM.
Thanks Stephane. I agree. There is a few webinars on this point as well. Saving Changes...
Steven ZacharyDirector| Alberta Health ServicesCalgary, Alberta, Canada
Dec 30, 2015 5:36 PM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
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But take into account that business analyst and project manager are totally diferent roles and people who perform the roles must take totally diferent skills, while most of us have been performed both roles at the same time in most of the initiatives. Busines analyst focus is the whole solution but mainly in helping the organization in defining the product/service/result characteristics that must be created to put the organizational strategy into action. Project manager focus is the work needed to create the definided product/service/result and all related to that work definition, execution, control and close. Business anlyst work continues after the project is closed because business analyst is in charge to monitoring if the product/service/result is achieving the benefits stated into the busines case and, if not, a new loop starts to define what to do with the product/service/result.
Sergio,
Have you ever heard the story about the PM Ego Test. It goes like this. Get a PM to compare a BA and a PM. If the PM considers BA an inferior team member, or one that simply scribes, then he has "the ego". If he thinks the BA is on par with the PM he is likely a BA.... ;)
I'm going to open a discussion on the PM/BA combo again, I like that topic.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Dec 31, 2015 6:23 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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And this is the first step to failure. I have been working from 1998 helping organizations in implementing the business analyst role and this is one of the situations I have to face most of the time around the world.
Saving Changes...
Erik Iglesias AbellaProgram/Project Manager, Business Architect, Business Process Mgmt Consultor| ŠkoFINPrague, Czechia
Steven: sorry, my laic/not god point of view, IMHO, I ... still don't see really as the best idea, that PMI is going to the BA place ... I understand that there are a lot of contact points, collaboration models etc... but PMI is what it is: an organization for managing and improving PM ... etc. and that is the capability or set of capabilities for PMI. Also Project Management has very close relationship with SDLC, with finance, with a lot of other areas, but it doesn't mean that PMI has also to certificate and spend a lot of time and energy on those areas...
Business Analysis, Business Architecture (but also process, functional analysis, business systems, data analysis ...) are areas that needs to develop very clearly and concisely, but by another stream focused on that... with champions in the area that are the best (as you are the best in PM)
When I prepare a project (and I was a lot of years e.g. Project Manager, but also a lot of years business analyst or even Business Architecture manager, preparing the project proposal even before a PM was assigned) I will try to find 2 roles that are often VERY DIFFERENT ... the Program manager, project manager, project analyst, project office specialist ... etc. and on the other hand, business analysts, business architect, solution architect, process consultor, process analyst, SME etc ... each of them has a very different set of skills (hard and soft) each of them has very different objectives often (yes, the project success is common, but the way how to do the work not) and ... (only my opinion!) it is the balance between the project management, finance, sponsor etc... at one side (make it cheap and on time!) and the architect/analyst on the other side (make it perfect from the first time and perfect for any future change!, meaning also understable, scalable, universal, reusable...maybe a little later or alittle more expensive, but great!) this balance (and natural "conflict" in good terms) is what I think makes the project solution and delivery optimal...
For small projects ... yes, the business analyst can also be the project coordinator or manager, or the PM with good skills can also make the analysis / architecture. for big projects the business analyst can be used also for project analysis (I am not very happy with that, the experiences showed me that in this case, he often don't do well neither of the roles, but OK), but still these roles are very different, and the effort for their development should be (only my opinion) very different.
PMI can grow at other areas (change management, conflicts mgmt, project finance mgmt, supplier mgmt ...) but sorry, the engineering area in my mind has to grow/develop consistently in a clear and well defined / separate way ...
If there is something that I see very often as an issue in a project (and there is another question / discussion for that in the PMO area from Fabio Araujo) ... is that the PM is trying to do the work of the architect/analyst/SME/consultor, forgeting many times his own PM work, and the architect/consultor is doing very often the work of the project manager... (yes, I understand the counter-argumentation, that another often issue, is a PM with no-clue about the solution that is implementing ...)
Then PMI can also go for improvement (a typical capability in projects ...) why not Lean / Six Sigma? then PMI can go for SDLC/SW development (more than 50% of projects are still in the SW area and growing the number...) so CMMi, etc... Then PMI can also enhance in the Enterprise Architecture area (TogaF, Zachman, PEAF etc...) but also in IT strategy and mgmt, and then ... also in business strategy! etc ... So needs the PM also to know about UML? BPMN? REQM? Archimate? ... waw! :-(
Good capability management, and separation of concerns will be the best.
About competition? yes ... true. But: better to create a "daughter" organization behind PMI, FOCUSED on BAn/EAr ... (and still I will prefer a strong certification body as IIBA, than a lot of PMI, Prince, IPMA etc ... and then you don't know which certification to get, or if you get one, then in another project/recruiting company are requesting another and ... you can not apply --> it very often happens to me) ... Saving Changes...