saurabh mahajanPMP, ITIL, PRINCE2| vodafonePune, Maharashtra, India
From a project manager's point of view when can he/she say the project is success
1) Only when the results meet client needs in defined time and cost ?
2) When project manager has managed all project management areas well ? even if he/she manages 8 areas well out of 10 knowledge areas can the project be success ?
or questions like below also should add to project success
1) is the team happy to work ?
2) Is the manager good ? Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Hi Mounir,
you are nailing the point: not every project is in a program.
But you yourself are promoting things like a pre-project, after-project etc.
So my thesis is this is the one reason why so many so called projects fail (even if they deliver in time&budget): because they should be run as programs.
I would argue, that indeed every project is in a program.
It just might not yet be defined as a program. As soon as there is a benefit expected, there is a program. The project manager does regularly not have the tools, knowledge, education, attitude and most important the responsibility to deliver the benefit. So who is charge of that program? Mostly it is middle management, business people, maybe portfolio managers.
It is similar to project portfolio management: every organization with projects is doing it, maybe unconscionably, if they call it so or not. Only when they understand that they might try a standardized and proven way, they might establish it. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Mounir: I never talked from a project manager perspective. In fact, the prorject manager perspective does not matter except for a project manager personal evaluation. The worst thing an organization can do to improve itslef is to penalize all related to project process assigning to it a project success factor like "growth 5% in market share in the current year". Once again, it will be achieved thanks the product/service/result not thanks to the project. What we must do is to assure that the product/service/result will be delivered as defined. Project management is not about product/service/result definition (what is the business solution definition). That is my point and I can sustain it. And that is one of the biggest problem because project management is not in the place it deserve inside the organizations. We need to consider the project manager is accountable to deliver the outcome as it is defined (that is project quality) but not to define it. Why? Because the project manager has not the skills to do that. If you ask me, I have wear both hats (business analyst and project manager) for years. I have achieved the desires objectives. But that not implies that I do not understand that both roles are totally different from the role definition to the role skills and abitilities. Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Hi Thomas
Before we can discuss the program vs. project we need to define what is a project.
Unfortunately - or fortunately, organizations have different views on what is a project.
The PMBOK Guide view focuses on the output - therefore, they view the project life cycle starting after the "pre-project" and ending with closing the project with the lessons learned, OPA updates, etc.
This is one view and it aligned with what Sergio has been posting. I also agree that this is one approach, which organizations can adopt.
On the other hands, there is the perspective (mostly by project owners) that the term project can also be used for the "venture".
Let us take this example;
Let us say that an investor (individual or a company) wants to build a hotel. The logical life cycle would be:
- Statement of Work (Idea Statement)
- Feasibility Study
- Authorization
- Product and Project Requirement (conceptual design by Arch.)
- PM Strategy or Plan
- Preliminary Engineering (Arch Design)
- Detailed Engineering
- Procurement
- Construction
- Commissioning
- Project close
Now, the PMBOK Guide view considers the first three bullets above are "Pre-Project". Further, as we said earlier with a focus on the output the project life cycle end with close project.
From the Project Developer (Owner) (assuming a company) there could be more than one department involved along this life cycle. These could include strategic planning, project management, operations, facilities management, maintenance, etc.
Now, an owner organization, should not stop with project close. Someone - some org unit should monitor the performance of the hotel, occupancy rate, etc. to determine if the "project" = "venture" is delivering on the business objective and they realize benefits.
After this long discussion - let us add: if this is one project - not related to other projects in the organization; how could it be a program? The only way I see it fits the definition of a program is if you consider the pre and post delivery of the output as independent projects. Is this what you are saying?
Obviously, in the SUKAD CAM2P Model, we do not see these as independent projects because we view projects as ventures (for owner organizations) and a project in our perspective must deliver the capabilities to deliver the outcome. I know some could split hair here in the definitions.
At the end - I am not rigid in what we name things - as long as someone - somewhere in the organization - people are performing strategic alignment - defining benefits - measuring success - and assessing the delivery of benefits. Are these various topics part of project management or asset management - organizations can decide what is best for them.
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1 reply by Thomas Walenta
Apr 26, 2016 4:03 PM
Thomas Walenta
...
Hi Mounir,
yes, I am saying that if you have a pre-project and post-project, you already have 3 projects that only together deliver what is expected - voila a program.
The list of activities in your last chapter: strategic alignment - defining benefits - measuring success - and assessing the delivery of benefits are exactly what a program according to PMI's PgM Standard is doing. These must not be confused with project management activities, because if it is, it is a main cause for failed 'projects'.
Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Sergio
I agree with you on the principles and my response to Thomas probably answer some of the points you raise.
I am not sure if you have seen my blog on the PM being the jack of all trades. Some organizations expect the PM to know it all and do it all and I disagree; the PM might not have the competence (as you said).
The key is the organization and long term perspective. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Mounir: I worked in that world too. Business analyst is a role. So, strategic planner was, in my case, the business analyst. But ok, I do not want to deviate from the original discussion. Things are simple. When a need of change arrives (a business need) a solution must be defined. The solution is composed by "the thing" to be created plus "the process" to create it. All related to "the thing" is in the field of business analysis (during the process from problem definition, solution definition, solution implementation, solution monitoring). All related to "the process" is in the field of project management. That´s all. Is not because I am saying that. We need to go to the basic that, in the case of PMI, is the project/program/portfolio standards and business analysis and requirements management standards. In my case, I adhere to IIBA standards too just in case of buisness analysis. And in the minetime I have performed my duties by mixing IIBA standard with PRINCE2 too. OBVIOUSLY any person or organization can take the way better fits for its organizational objectives. Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
Hi Mounir,
yes, I am saying that if you have a pre-project and post-project, you already have 3 projects that only together deliver what is expected - voila a program.
The list of activities in your last chapter: strategic alignment - defining benefits - measuring success - and assessing the delivery of benefits are exactly what a program according to PMI's PgM Standard is doing. These must not be confused with project management activities, because if it is, it is a main cause for failed 'projects'. Saving Changes...
Thomas WalentaGlobal Project Economy ExpertHackenheim, Germany
The core purpose of a program is to deliver benefits (outcomes).
It is not to combine some projects into 'something'. Saving Changes...
Shelby MengProject Manager| Electrolux China Home Appliances Company LimitedNanjing, China, Mainland
Except project cost, quality and scope, there are other indexes according to different project category. Maybe different company has varying conclusion. Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Hello Thomas
Noted - here we have different perspective. To me a project has to deliver value. The pre-project is the first phase on the project life cycle - not outside it. This is one of the main areas where our approach differ from the PMBOK Guide.
I second Thomas in that I believe from an organisational point of view you always have a program (according to PMI definitions) - if you manage it like that or not. In a contractors / consulting work I live in - that's the usual case (even if the client names it "overall project" or we call it "the client project").
So a project can deliver a part of a business value - and I think the PM can be responsible for that, if it's in the scope of the project. I agree with Sergio, that the 5% he used as example cannot be the responsibility of a PM, but there are other cases. So as always, it depends on the nature and scope of the project.
Regarding BA role: I think that also depends on the level the BA works in that moment. BA work can be part of a portfolio definiton, planning or controling or a part of a program or project execution. BA work in my opinion can also be outside a portfolio when it comes to define the business model or even the company as such. So BA work compliments that of PM's and PgrMs or Portfolio Managers - and has at least the same number of levels than (P)PM profession. Saving Changes...
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