Agile as a look of tools/methods made for IT project. Agile can be use in other industries but you should use tools/methods that are made for that industry.
Any suggestion for construction? Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Yes, you are right. That is not using agile based methods. Is to implement agile practice with an specific life cycle process. About the project to build houses, we use DSDM for the whole process. The construction activities (the physical activities) are sequential in essence and we tried to apply agile practices as far as we can . The point here is to take the definition of agile: it is a way of thinking and behave with focus on client and quality. When agile is implementing then you gain into agility which is the ability to answer environmental stimuli and creating environmental stimuli (this second part makes the difference with Lean). Those are not my definitions. So, unfortunatelly for people like me that are hired for companies to help implmenting Agile, there are a lot of confusion outside there and I have to spend time to explain to those people that Agile is not what they think it is. It is not deliver faster, it is not following incremental process, it is not less documentation, it is not cost optimization, and lot of other things. Returning to last Jeff Sutherland book, that is what he tried to explain in the book (while I am not saying that I agree in all things Mr Sutherland said). Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Sergio
You said: "the definition of agile: it is a way of thinking and behave with focus on client and quality." Is this Agile? If this Agile, then who said this is not waterfall as well? Or PRINCE2 or CAMMP?
The first Principle in the Agile Manifesto is this: "Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software" we can ignore the word software (since it could be other things) but what does "early and continuous delivery" mean? Is not this what many of the Agile books and even PMI-ACP are based on the concept of sprints and increments with the increments being short durations?
Here is the second principle "Deliver working software frequently, from a couple of weeks to a couple of months, with a preference to the shorter timescale."
So, are you saying this not what agile should be?
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2 replies by Sergio Luis Conte
Oct 27, 2017 7:12 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Here is the confusion. Agile is a practice. Waterfall is a life cycle process. Then, you can use Agile with waterfall. And the other confusion is: Agile did not born with the manifesto. I worked with the Manifesto creators so I know about that. Why the name is Manifesto for Agile Software Development? Why the use of the word "software"? Because the authors wanted to explicit mentioned that the manifesto is an implementation of agile in the software field. Agile was born inside the USA DoD NSF/Agility Forum in 1990 (I was part of the forum) trying to find an answer to Lean. At the same time I was part of the group of authors of DSDM version 1 and 2 where I worked with Arie Van Bennekum between others and that was started in 1992 (DSDM was free of use at this time). Time ago (10 years more or less) people who have method to create software join together and created the manifesto for software. The work software is there for a reason. Now, the word software has been removed in some of them and the word solution is added.
Oct 27, 2017 7:22 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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On the other side Mounir the key is into the ambiguity or abstraction used into the Manifesto. Forgot my comments and search for Manifesto creators explanation about that. They made it lot of times but people did not read it. When you work to implement agile in software field for example and you take the manifesto as a guide the challenge is to define things like "deliver frecuently", "shorter timescale" etc. That must be defined at organizational level and that is a matter of quality. When you see that some agile implementations did not work is becasue of that. Organizations thinks that to implemente agile is so simple that to use a method. They forgot the systemic theory. The problem is: to much people talking about agile with no practical experience on it.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Here is the confusion. Agile is a practice. Waterfall is a life cycle process. Then, you can use Agile with waterfall. And the other confusion is: Agile did not born with the manifesto. I worked with the Manifesto creators so I know about that. Why the name is Manifesto for Agile Software Development? Why the use of the word "software"? Because the authors wanted to explicit mentioned that the manifesto is an implementation of agile in the software field. Agile was born inside the USA DoD NSF/Agility Forum in 1990 (I was part of the forum) trying to find an answer to Lean. At the same time I was part of the group of authors of DSDM version 1 and 2 where I worked with Arie Van Bennekum between others and that was started in 1992 (DSDM was free of use at this time). Time ago (10 years more or less) people who have method to create software join together and created the manifesto for software. The work software is there for a reason. Now, the word software has been removed in some of them and the word solution is added. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
On the other side Mounir the key is into the ambiguity or abstraction used into the Manifesto. Forgot my comments and search for Manifesto creators explanation about that. They made it lot of times but people did not read it. When you work to implement agile in software field for example and you take the manifesto as a guide the challenge is to define things like "deliver frecuently", "shorter timescale" etc. That must be defined at organizational level and that is a matter of quality. When you see that some agile implementations did not work is becasue of that. Organizations thinks that to implemente agile is so simple that to use a method. They forgot the systemic theory. The problem is: to much people talking about agile with no practical experience on it. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Regarding PMI-ACP, I was the first in Latin America in getting the certification and the third worldwide. Is the most difficult certification to get. Why? Because you need practical experience on alll methods stated into the list of recommended reading to answer the questions regarding the situation. Why? Becasue when you see the definition of sprint, which is "shorter timescale", you will see that is different mainly in the time duration into each method you have to the opportunity to work. That is the challenge. Saving Changes...
Stéphane ParentSelf Employed / Semi-retired| Leader MakerPrince Edward Island, Canada
Sometimes we have to be a little more creative in our definition of value.
While we can quickly put working software into a customer's hands, the value of the delivered functionality will be limited until additional functionality gets added. For example, I could deliver a web page that allows you to capture data. Until you get the next web page that manipulates the captured data, that initial value is small.
In the case of a single house, if your first iteration is the foundation, you can treat it similarly as limited value. Yes, there is very little that the house owners can do with it but it still has an intrinsic value. The proof is the financial value of the lot has gone up by the sheer fact of adding a foundation. If you were to sell your house lot after pouring the foundation, you should get more money than just selling the un-developed lot. (The problem is whether you would get the full cost of the foundation back. The problem is the same in software development.)
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Oct 27, 2017 9:28 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Great comment Stéphane. That is the challenge. Value is something to be defined at organizational level because it is a subjective term organizations must transform into objective one.. In fact it should be done inside the definition of quality which is a strategic topic due to for defining quality the organization must define the term "client". What is valuable for you it is not valuable for me. As you mentioned one of the fields where we have dealt with that form years is software due to something we only find into software: intangibility.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Oct 27, 2017 8:58 AM
Replying to Stéphane Parent
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Sometimes we have to be a little more creative in our definition of value.
While we can quickly put working software into a customer's hands, the value of the delivered functionality will be limited until additional functionality gets added. For example, I could deliver a web page that allows you to capture data. Until you get the next web page that manipulates the captured data, that initial value is small.
In the case of a single house, if your first iteration is the foundation, you can treat it similarly as limited value. Yes, there is very little that the house owners can do with it but it still has an intrinsic value. The proof is the financial value of the lot has gone up by the sheer fact of adding a foundation. If you were to sell your house lot after pouring the foundation, you should get more money than just selling the un-developed lot. (The problem is whether you would get the full cost of the foundation back. The problem is the same in software development.)
Great comment Stéphane. That is the challenge. Value is something to be defined at organizational level because it is a subjective term organizations must transform into objective one.. In fact it should be done inside the definition of quality which is a strategic topic due to for defining quality the organization must define the term "client". What is valuable for you it is not valuable for me. As you mentioned one of the fields where we have dealt with that form years is software due to something we only find into software: intangibility. Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Stephane - Sergio
I can have a wide imagination and I understand value could be small or large or even huge but are not we stretching reality too much?
Unless I am wrong, value is about delivering something to the customer that works. It does not have to be a complete website but at least pages that can be public and usable.
However, to say house foundation adds value - a bit wacky; forgive my expression. What am I (house owner) going to do with the foundation? I can accept a basic house that is not painted or no garden, but I must have walls, running water, and working toilet. Maybe we can live without electricity; maybe even no toilet if the house in the wood, we can go a la natural --- but foundation?
Give me a break.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Oct 27, 2017 11:35 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Value is beyond that. If not, think about Microsoft. it has no sense, from my point of view, to discuss about that when lot of information, techniques, history, and any other thing you want to name is outside there in the field or Quality. Value, Client, this type of things must be defined at strategical level. At this point the balance between value and grade must be defined too.
Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Sorry, a couple more points:
1. Selling the lot with foundation, to me at least, dilute the value does not add value since the buyer might not want to build a house on the lot that would use the same foundation as mine. So they will have to demolish them at an extra cost.
2. The objective of the project is to design and build a house, not sell a failed project.
You guys can do better than this :)
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1 reply by Stéphane Parent
Oct 27, 2017 10:13 AM
Stéphane Parent
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I did consider your first point, that the foundation could actually be a detriment to its resale. Please note that I only used the scenario as a demonstration of value. It does not make sense from an owner's perspective to sell your lot at that point in time. Even if you don't get your money out of the foundation, it is still accrued value towards your house.
I don't disagree your point Mounir, that a foundation is not something that "works" for the house owner. I was deliberately stretching the point to indicate that perhaps we need to rethink how we assign value.and how we define agile for industries' where something that "works" may be less than meaningful.
Saving Changes...
Stéphane ParentSelf Employed / Semi-retired| Leader MakerPrince Edward Island, Canada
I did consider your first point, that the foundation could actually be a detriment to its resale. Please note that I only used the scenario as a demonstration of value. It does not make sense from an owner's perspective to sell your lot at that point in time. Even if you don't get your money out of the foundation, it is still accrued value towards your house.
I don't disagree your point Mounir, that a foundation is not something that "works" for the house owner. I was deliberately stretching the point to indicate that perhaps we need to rethink how we assign value.and how we define agile for industries' where something that "works" may be less than meaningful. Saving Changes...