Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Apr 11, 2017 9:39 PM
Replying to Vincent Guerard
...
Part of BA is done before the actual project !
PMBOK is concern with the project .
As Vincent wrote you can split the process into three main component: pre-project, project, post-project. Other approches like PRINCE2 take the three into the same project life cycle. That is not the case of PMI becuase there is no project life cycle into the PMBOK due to is a Guide. Pre-project and Post-Project activities are in charge of the business analyst. Project are in charge of the project manager. The best practice demmands that both roles perform they work along the three phases but it depends on your life cycle. For example, the project manager role that works in pre-project could not be the project manager assigned to the project.
...
2 replies by Vincent Guerard
Apr 15, 2017 1:42 PM
Vincent Guerard
...
Best practice would have both role at all phase, I agree.
May 24, 2017 11:50 PM
Vincent Guerard
...
It is one of the strength of Prince2 to combine Pre-project, project and post project. A governance that all organisation should consider.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Apr 11, 2017 10:30 PM
Replying to George Lewis
...
Vincent - I respectfully disagree...
Depending on the view -which I do respect- you may have one big project (BA Project + Actual Project), you may have two different projects (requirements + actual project), you may have one big actual project (with no BA)...
There is much around the topic just to say that BA is done before the actual project.
So, even if technically the comment is correct, the GAP still exists, there is a link between the work delivered by the BA and received by the PM.
It's muy humble opinion as both a PM and a BA, and also believes the PMBOK lacks the integration. But this is jut a nice and open discussion. :)
Comments?
With all my due respect George is not about what you think (generally speaking), is about what you can find into the documentation, mainly the BABOK (IIBA) and the PMBOK (PMI). You have to check your comment here because is not right. Not because I am saying that, is because you can find it into the documentation.
...
1 reply by George Lewis
Apr 13, 2017 7:16 AM
George Lewis
...
Sergio - I do see you're still very active... Glad this is a forum we can all exchange views...
Very interesting insights...
Saving Changes...
George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
Apr 13, 2017 7:14 AM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
...
With all my due respect George is not about what you think (generally speaking), is about what you can find into the documentation, mainly the BABOK (IIBA) and the PMBOK (PMI). You have to check your comment here because is not right. Not because I am saying that, is because you can find it into the documentation.
Sergio - I do see you're still very active... Glad this is a forum we can all exchange views...
Very interesting insights... Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Apr 12, 2017 7:49 AM
Replying to John Tieso
...
BA should be part of requirements development, and thus the reply that it is not part of the project is technically true. However, as with many requirements development exercises, the BA is often inaccurate or incomplete, and the project team ends up having to redo some or even much of it to get to reality. if the sense is there that change is needed, a prospective PM and/or sponsor should be part of the BA effort, bringing their information to the team, as it comes on line.
John, your comments are very valuable for me. Bussiness analyst MUST BE part of the project. If not the project will fail. Why? Because business analyst focus is product/service/result and that must be manage around the whole life cycle mainly because as everybody knows there will be changes along it. BUT it will depend on the life cycle. In fact, inside the BABOK, you can find an activity which where the business analyst is accountable and needs other stakeholders (the project manager between them) that is to define the solution approach (the life cycle) to use. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Apr 12, 2017 4:09 PM
Replying to Bill Morgan
...
Gaps can be filled with collaboration.
That is because, if people read the actual PMI`s Practice Guide for Business Analyst, people will find "Collaboration Points" (that is the name) into it to understand how both roles interact. Totally agree Bill. Saving Changes...
John TiesoAuthor, Lecturer in Business Management| The Catholic University of America, Busch School of Business & EconomicsArlington, Va, United States
In my view, there are two ways to approach projects--the 'official' way and the practical way--using experience and knowledge. References from organizations are great for organizing thought and having a checklist to make sure nothing major is omitted which should be accomplished.
However, just as in life, few things actually proceed according to the rules. There are twists and changes that will occur, and even the bible of the craft needs to change to accommodate changes in the way work is actually done over time. Using the BABOK and PMBOK as references for creating a change environment, does not mean you do every project going from page to page of those guides. If you tried that approach only two things can happen--(1) You will never finish the project, or (2) It will not end the way you expected.
My suggestion is to use common sense and look at the practicality of the situation. In this discussion on who does the BA and when, think about why a business analysis is created, and then ask yourself, 'when do I need to do this?' it seems to me that a business analysis is not done just for the fun of doing one--it is done because of the perception that something needs to change. The BA tells you what that 'something is', thus development of at least the initial cut of it has to be completed before decisions are made on how or if to proceed further. That is long before any project manager might be designated.
Just a few thoughts here.
...
1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Apr 13, 2017 7:36 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
...
That is because they are guides. In fact, if you tried to use them to do something you will fail because both does not define the process or life cycle to do something. Both are only guides that you can take into account or not. The important thing is to stay clear about definitions. To stay clear about business analysis and business analyst is and about project managerment and project manager is. For me, is more easy to use the knowledge inside the standards to have a common language. In my humble opinion, if we not take that path the work of lot of people could be jeopardized. For example, by thinking that there is a GAP between both roles or the link between both guides. And it is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a matter to read the standards if people decide it. People who have worked with both roles inside an initiative could undestand that.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Apr 13, 2017 7:26 AM
Replying to John Tieso
...
In my view, there are two ways to approach projects--the 'official' way and the practical way--using experience and knowledge. References from organizations are great for organizing thought and having a checklist to make sure nothing major is omitted which should be accomplished.
However, just as in life, few things actually proceed according to the rules. There are twists and changes that will occur, and even the bible of the craft needs to change to accommodate changes in the way work is actually done over time. Using the BABOK and PMBOK as references for creating a change environment, does not mean you do every project going from page to page of those guides. If you tried that approach only two things can happen--(1) You will never finish the project, or (2) It will not end the way you expected.
My suggestion is to use common sense and look at the practicality of the situation. In this discussion on who does the BA and when, think about why a business analysis is created, and then ask yourself, 'when do I need to do this?' it seems to me that a business analysis is not done just for the fun of doing one--it is done because of the perception that something needs to change. The BA tells you what that 'something is', thus development of at least the initial cut of it has to be completed before decisions are made on how or if to proceed further. That is long before any project manager might be designated.
Just a few thoughts here.
That is because they are guides. In fact, if you tried to use them to do something you will fail because both does not define the process or life cycle to do something. Both are only guides that you can take into account or not. The important thing is to stay clear about definitions. To stay clear about business analysis and business analyst is and about project managerment and project manager is. For me, is more easy to use the knowledge inside the standards to have a common language. In my humble opinion, if we not take that path the work of lot of people could be jeopardized. For example, by thinking that there is a GAP between both roles or the link between both guides. And it is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a matter to read the standards if people decide it. People who have worked with both roles inside an initiative could undestand that. Saving Changes...
Bill MorganProject Manager| Epic Management L.P. Redlands, CAMoreno Valley, Ca, United States
Apr 12, 2017 4:09 PM
Replying to Bill Morgan
...
Gaps can be filled with collaboration.
How can I start a project without a Business Justification or a SOW. The business operations needs to produce these deliverables either with the PMO or an internal business analyst.
...
1 reply by John Tieso
Apr 15, 2017 11:55 AM
John Tieso
...
Bill: A lot depends on the structure of an organization. In Larger ones, there is often a PMO which serves an overarching structure to provide assistance and support to individual PMs and teams. In smaller orgs, it may indeed be the BA. Either way, you aright that it is virtually impossible to begin a project without the analysis and statement of work. There are bound to be exceptions out there, but they are rarely, and even more rarely successful.
Saving Changes...
John TiesoAuthor, Lecturer in Business Management| The Catholic University of America, Busch School of Business & EconomicsArlington, Va, United States
Apr 15, 2017 11:48 AM
Replying to Bill Morgan
...
How can I start a project without a Business Justification or a SOW. The business operations needs to produce these deliverables either with the PMO or an internal business analyst.
Bill: A lot depends on the structure of an organization. In Larger ones, there is often a PMO which serves an overarching structure to provide assistance and support to individual PMs and teams. In smaller orgs, it may indeed be the BA. Either way, you aright that it is virtually impossible to begin a project without the analysis and statement of work. There are bound to be exceptions out there, but they are rarely, and even more rarely successful. Saving Changes...
Depending on the view -which I do respect- you may have one big project (BA Project + Actual Project), you may have two different projects (requirements + actual project), you may have one big actual project (with no BA)...
There is much around the topic just to say that BA is done before the actual project.
So, even if technically the comment is correct, the GAP still exists, there is a link between the work delivered by the BA and received by the PM.
It's muy humble opinion as both a PM and a BA, and also believes the PMBOK lacks the integration. But this is jut a nice and open discussion. :)
Comments?
I understand, and I' not saying that we don't need a link.
Actual documentation is build that way. Maybe in upcoming updates.
...
1 reply by George Lewis
Apr 15, 2017 2:19 PM
George Lewis
...
Vincent - Ok, understood... Maybe in the upcoming updates as you mention...
"I do not know anyone who has got to the top without hard work. That is the recipe. It will not always get you to the top, but should get you pretty near."
