I've heard a lot of people knocking the PMI recently and especially the PMBOK as being a waste of time and now I've even seen a website which seems to throw obscentities at PMI eg the site.... www.pmsucks.blogspot.com
What do others think is PMI and the BOK as bad as everybody says or is it worth joining? Saving Changes...
Well said, Andy! I couldn't agree more. Saving Changes...
Andy JordanPresident| Roffensian Consulting S.A.Cherry Grove, AB, Canada
First off, apologies for posting under another alias before - I lost my log in and inadvertently logged back in under an old post last time - hence why my last post was identified as my second....
Eric, I guess my fundamental disagreement with you is that I have a slightly more positive view of the practitioners of our profession - you may well view that as being naive, but I think that the vast majority of project management professionals (I'm not referring to PMPs, just professionals within the profession) are capable of interpretation. I am not intelligent enough to comment on the religious analogy, but the implication seems to be that 'texts' are not interpreted, rather taken purely at face value. That may well be the case with people from outside of our profession, they don't (necessarily) have the experience or skills to interpret and adapt PMBOK for their situations, but I don't think that is the prime audience for the PMI. OPM3 is not intended to be a disucssion document for the masses, but rather a publication for the profession, and those whose organisations support the profession. I guess my personal bottom line is that if you take every word of the PMI as 'gospel' you are headed for trouble, just as you are with CMM, RUP or any other approach. If you take the perspective and relate it to your personal situation I think you end up with a valuable tool. Saving Changes...
Andy , now we are starting to find some territory on which we agree but, in fact, you are quoting back to me points which I have already touched on below. I am completely in agreement that there are many people out there who are getting on with doing projects either blissfully unaware of PMI/PMBOK and the like (lucky them) or others who are smart enough to pay it scant attention (“interpret” it as you say) this is exactly right and I mention these people in my post of June 22nd ie: “If you do have a good chat with some-one with that depth of experience you will be surprised by how much contempt they have for PMI, PMBOK and similar ‘canned’ methods or ‘life cycles’ ”.) I also advocate in a post below that PMI members “maintain their scepticism and not to be credulous”.
We might say that it is not those types I am directing my comments at, it is (especially) the PM zealots (many exist!) and those who have fallen for it (some do).
But even that is not right, just because people can and do interpret PMBOK doesn’t negate the argument below, because training in PMBOK, even when the PMBOK is “interpreted”, still carries with it the likelihood of setting up “tunnel vision” or “group think” or what we might even call a frame of reference/“cognitive bias”/prejudice/prejudgement/institutionalised technocratic behaviour or subconscious bigotry towards particular approaches and patterns of thought (namely positivism). Ie PMBOK and its ideas can subtly infused the norms of both individuals and groups. (this point is a little obscure but well understood in organisational theory and sociology). It is important to realise that this happens both in the individual and in groups within the organisation or even the wider professional field. And consequently this which makes PMBOK an unsuitable mechanism for the dissemination of Project Management knowledge.
While PMBOK and the like are good carriers which allow the PM community to share a common vocabulary, basic understanding of techniques, help by acting as a memory aid, help in structuring action etc they also need to carry a huge health warning : “Do Not Take at Face Value.”, Does Not Do What it Says on the Tin” or “Large Pinch of Salt to be Taken Upon Opening the PMBOK”. Unfortunately the vigour with which PM is sold both at board level and to individuals means that this type of scepticism is too often absent, particularly as companies are being induced to train very inexperienced members of staff as PMP in order to shortcut the skills development problem. When you get inexperienced people trained and recruited in this “boot camp” way you are asking for trouble, and PMI is instrumental in making that very thing happen (they make loads of money and good new recruits to the cause out of it). Also the very complexity and “dynamic” nature of projects in modern organisations is greatly misunderstood – even by much senior management and by most middle managers meaning that VERY great latitude, flexibility and interpretation are required in applying PMBOK or the like. The sad thing is that even a highly experienced PM who could “interpret” and act flexibly is often unable to act appropriately once PMBOK has been implemented because of the great weight of expectation from less experienced staff who expect compliance to PMBOK or from the bureaucrats in Project Offices and the like who are often unaware of how to “interpret” or who just fall back on the PMBOK to cover their arse (or more cynically as part of politiking - yes politics around nit-picking PM deliverables wastes a huge amount of time in most organisations).
To see what I mean, just read a selection of the posts on these boards and you will see the majority of discussions indicate that the participants have fallen for PMI/PMBOK/positivism HOOK, LINE and SINKER.
Paul, I agree with James, Mark, Anonymous, and Andy and would recommend to anyone seriously interested in project management joining PMI and/or attending local PMI chapter meetings. Don't be duped by this guy who calls himself Eric Blair. The real Eric Blair, better known as George Orwell (1903-1950), is the famous political satirist and author of "Animal Farm". This guy is just a poser. Eric Blair is NOT his real name. And the picture on the profile page of his blog (http://pmsucks.blogspot.com) is NOT his real picture. It is George Orwell's. This guy has no project management or PMO credentials, accomplishments, or note worthiness of any kind. He plays at satire, but without tested experience, maturity, and thought leadership in project management, he is left with mostly name calling and evading any kind of direct and sincere dialog. He ridicules others for posting anonymously, yet he lies about even his own name. As you can read for yourself, he is not interested in or capable of advancing ideas, only rhetoric. - that is speech that sounds impressive, but in actuality is NOT sincere and NOT useful. Critical thinker and clever satirist, he is not. Phoney and a fake, well, you can be the judge of that.
Hey Scott, well done. You uncovered the joke. I didn’t think it would take this long for someone to pick up on the clues, given that I posted Eric Blair's picture on the Blog and other clues I have posted. It was supposed to be a subtle in-joke, bit of a pity you missed the joke and took it so seriously! But the million dollar question is do you know why Blair was is relevant the this discussion? As for whether the ideas in this thread are correct or not, they speak for themselves. Re: "he is not interested in or capable of advancing ideas" err.... If you read these posts you will find many important ideas by major academics in the field of management which are relevant to understanding PM at more than a superficial level promoted by PMI and the like (and most of them referenced back to the quality academic literature). Of course I wouldn’t expect you to be able to see or understand that because as I say elsewhere PM is a "BLINDING IDEOLOGY". PMI members (and the like) are unable to accept any explanations of PM which do not involve process, CMM, etc which have become their "gods". So it is not surprising that my views seem alien and frightening to you. Pity you want to bite the hand that is offering you new knowledge. Here is a NEWS FLASH for you: there is no god and PM is snake-oil!
Mary Elizabeth DiabDirector| Leadership FormationTallassee, Al, United States
Dave,
Just wanted to stop in here and make a couple of comments. Going to your original question, I am a fairly big fan of PMI and the PMBOK for several reasons. First, I'd like to address a clear misconception. The PMBOK is not a document that is intended to be taken into a company and applied directly. It is NOT a methodology. It is, as the title states, a GUIDE to the Project Management Body of Knowledge. Notice, it is not THE Guide, it is one guide. It is not the bible (as proposed below), it is a book to help you collect generally accepted practices in Project Management. It saves me the trouble of going out and reading every book on project management. I can review the Guide to the PMBOK and have a high level overview. I then may understand what areas are likely to interest me further. Courses do not teach you PMI or PMBOK. Generally they teach you some tools or techniques based upon the instructor or course designer's experience. They may be PMBOK compliant (meaning that they don't directly disagree with the PMBOK), which simply indicates their viewpoint.
If you spend much time in any community, you will find people who spend a great amount of time knocking anything that doesn't agree with their particular view. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to do this respectfully with thoughtful constructive feedback. While you may believe that the tools/techniques suggested by PMI in it's Guide to the PMBOK are not helpful, I would encourage you to review them (and all of the other tools/techniques out there) and find what fits your need. The old adage that If you have a hammer, everything will be a nail... should be completed by adding ...but sometimes a nail is just a nail. If I'm building a house, I will need a hammer. I'll also need a variety of other tools. if I am wise, I will review all of the tools available to me and then select the one that applies best to my situation. This is how the PMBOK is designed. It offers one approach, not the only approach, to managing projects. However, by understanding it, you are likely to add something to your tool belt (as it were).
I would also ask you to take a look and see if you've seen lots of people indicating that PMI and its Guide to the PMBOK is bad or if you've heard a few people shouting it lots of times. That may help give you some perspective. If you search the web, you can find a blog dedicated to bashing pretty much anything there is. If one person has an idea, someone else will want to bash it.
As to whether you should consider joining PMI, that's up to you. You can join those of us in the (apparently mindless) masses who find it valuable to join 150,000+ of our colleagues in order to understand what we can learn from their approach to managing a project or you can not. PMI produces a number of interesting deliverables every year. With its PM Network and Project Management Journal, it continues to offer a forum for Practitioners to share what they have learned as they do their projects. These approaches may or may not be PMBOK compliant and they may or may not be applicable to you. Joining a Specific Interest Group may allow you to learn something from peers in your industry that struggle with same challenges that you do and bring their experience to bear each day just as you do. Personally, I find value in belonging to the organization. I learned a great deal while preparing for my PMP exam, and I keep a copy of the Guide to the PMBOK for reference, knowing that it represents a collection of ideas that is likely to be applicable across a range of industries. It is not my Bible (I have one of those already and it doesn't relate to PM). It is not a methodology, it is simply one tool that I use. I know many of the people who have worked on the Standards Committee developing this document. I respect their knowledge and experience and know that they have far more real-world experience than I. I also know that all that they came up with does not apply to me (and doesn't claim to). So, in reality, this is a choice you have to make. For me, yes it's a worthwhile organization (albeit with the problems associated with any group of 150,000+ people with varying needs). I hope this may help. Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Dave, the value that I find in PMI and its PMBOK is that they provide a “generally accepted” framework for the project management practice. It is not to be a blindly followed methodology. The first page in the PMBOK clearly states that context. The PMI bashers are rightly justified in their bashing, but the bashing should be directed at the people who hide behind the process, or have no grasp of the fundamentals, not at the PMBOK itself. The PMI is just an easy target. Any good tool in the wrong hands can be dangerous. The PMBOK also provides the starting point for a common set of terminology, just as the framework is just a starting point. Consider the PMBOK for project management as you would consider a playbook for a sports team. The book assumes that the players already can perform well-executed fundamental blocking, tackling, passing, etc, The PMI framework provides a context for project management fundamentals, just like sports teams playbook. First you have to master the fundamentals and then you string them together… as necessary. And, just as with a sports team, scrimmages are nooo where remotely close to what will happen in the actual game. If you blindly follow the playbook, you will lose the real game. You’ve got to adapt. Learn to read what is happening on the playing field, adapt the playbook, execute the fundamentals and you have a better chance at success (not guaranteed). You can ignore the fundamentals, ignore the playbook and send some really good players out on to the field, and maybe even win the game. But which approach will cause more consistent wins when up against a tough situation? Saving Changes...
I recall the moment I decided to obtain a PMP certification. Fortunately, I experienced a flashback that straightened me up and I was able to resist the temptation. I think that there are probably a lot of decent project managers running around out there with PMPs. Many of them probably held their nose and dove into the stream long enough to emerge victorious with the wall-hanging. However, my flashback took me back to the days when businesses were advertising in large print for NT 4.0 MCSEs!!! Many heeded the call and ran to get their MCSE. Unfortunately, we ended up with a lot of what came to be called "paper MCSEs," then the credential faded in meaning and the investment in the process lost its return. I decided against getting the wall-hanging and, instead, choose to rely on my track record. One of the biggest turnoffs I found early on is that many large organizations already have favored terminology - and the PMI seems largely about learning someone else's word to substitute for the perfectly usable one (ones) I already have. We may soon see the new term "paper PMP" and then it too will fade in importance. Saving Changes...
I would say that the 'utility' of being a PMP is defined by how one looks at it. There have already been enough posts to this forum that demarcate 'paper' qualifications from actual competency in a field. But it is cognizant to reflect back on the basic need of any qualification for that matter. Any organization- big or small- hires a candidate for the proficiency that She or He may carry towards a particular job or set of jobs. Since degree papers/ certifications and discussions over past work experience are the only finite ways in which this can be done, we see this happening all around- perhaps in every field of vocation today. For me, if a candidate is a PMP and holds no convincing past track record of having leveraged his knowledge to the previous organizations' benefits.... obviously is a bad choice for a role as responsible and demanding as that of a manager to an entire project. What I wish to put across is... if someone cracks the PMP without real credentials PROVING that she/he is capable of delivering- would still remain a bad choice for any employer. So the role of PMI is an issue to be taken in a separate discussion... but as far as a PMP certification is concerned... I guess that brings about a higher need of knowing the subject of Project Management than to offer a shortcut. And to be able to exhibit that, being practically hands-on was, and still is the only channel.
But I may be counted as an exception to pure logical decisions- I ain't no PMP, and don't intend to be one either... for I feel I'll do just fine without it too! :) Saving Changes...
David TannenProject Manager| FHL Bank of TopekaSaint Paul, Mn, United States
Who is the 'everyone'?
Guess I am one of the mindless 'toadies' since I find the PMI & PMBOK useful. Or maybe I am someone who is smart enough to learn from other people - I don't have to re-invent the wheel every time I do a project.
I will say that I have been doing PM for about 10 years and made it my career about 7 years ago. The projects I have lead are embedded systems which are mission critical (ie people die if they fail). I have been a successful PM on most of my projects.
How about you Eric, what is your experience? Saving Changes...
