Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Aug 02, 2018 9:18 AM
Replying to Michael Effanga PMP PMI-PBA PMI-ACP
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Sergio, thank you for your contribution.
Can you explain what you mean by this 'Business Analyst work do not overlap Project Manager role. Not at all." bearing in mind that both roles work together towards successful value delivery
It does mean exactly that. They do not overlap because the focus is totally different. There is a big mistake about what does mean "value delivery". I am part of the group that is creating a new practice guide on the field. But you can find all you need to understand that they do not overlap inside Practice Guide I mentioned before. What delivers value? The product/service/result to be created. Business Analyst is accountable for that mainly working before a project exists and then worling after the project ends (it does not mean business analyst will not work along project execution) where her/his focus is the product. The project contribute to that by creating exact what is defined as product/service/result (the project manager is not accountable for the definition), in the time needed, in the estimated cost and with the defined quality. The project does not deliver value by itself. That is the big mistake some people made and the PMI is in the process to clarify (in fact, that was done inside the new PMBOK and Business Analysis guides). Saving Changes...
Business Analyst work do not overlap Project Manager role. Not at all. Just to add some information I was part of the "genesis" of the role working with the IIBA before it was created formally. Now I am working with the PMI in the same from the first deliverable the PMI published (the practice guide). I have performed conferences from 2010 inside the PMI World Tour explanining how both roles work together. My recommendation is: take the Practice Guide (https://www.pmi.org/pmbok-guide-standards/...iness-analysis) read it mainly put attention to "Collaboration Points". You will find all you need to understand how both roles interact inside it.
Having fulfilled both roles for years, and studied both BoKs, I agree 100%.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Aug 02, 2018 12:29 PM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Good to read Bob. By chance of fate I was involved into business analyst role definition and business analysis standard definition what at the end derive in the creation of the IIBA. But I always applied in the practice things that I have endorsed in the "academic" field. What the IIBA stated and now what the PMI stated about business analysis is what, at least in my case working on that from 1990, worked for me. Becasuse of that I was (and I am) involved with both organizations as volunteer to create all related to the role.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Aug 02, 2018 10:21 AM
Replying to Bob Thomas
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Having fulfilled both roles for years, and studied both BoKs, I agree 100%.
Good to read Bob. By chance of fate I was involved into business analyst role definition and business analysis standard definition what at the end derive in the creation of the IIBA. But I always applied in the practice things that I have endorsed in the "academic" field. What the IIBA stated and now what the PMI stated about business analysis is what, at least in my case working on that from 1990, worked for me. Becasuse of that I was (and I am) involved with both organizations as volunteer to create all related to the role. Saving Changes...
Kik PineyConsultant| PROjects-BeneFITSMougins, France
Jul 31, 2018 5:15 AM
Replying to Sergio Luis Conte
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Business Analyst work do not overlap Project Manager role. Not at all. Just to add some information I was part of the "genesis" of the role working with the IIBA before it was created formally. Now I am working with the PMI in the same from the first deliverable the PMI published (the practice guide). I have performed conferences from 2010 inside the PMI World Tour explanining how both roles work together. My recommendation is: take the Practice Guide (https://www.pmi.org/pmbok-guide-standards/...iness-analysis) read it mainly put attention to "Collaboration Points". You will find all you need to understand how both roles interact inside it.
Sergio. On the relationship between the PM and the BA: I did some thinking about this in 2011 and published a blog article that finished with this verse - adapted from the musical Oklahoma!
The PM and the BA should be friends
Oh, the PM and the BA should be friends
The PM likes to make a plan
The other serves the business man
But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.
Projectizing folks should stick together
Projectizing folks should all be mates
PMs work with BA’s data
BAs work to the PM’s dates.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Aug 04, 2018 7:50 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Mon dieu, super!. Trying to emulate such a good poetry I usually said that the main diffrence between both is: business analyst must let those stakeholder fly while the project manager must make those stakeholders land. That is because business analyst is focused on solution while project manager is focused on activities to create the solution as defined and only as defined. Solution is because strategy must be put in action then is the mean for organizational survival, growth and development.
Saving Changes...
Kik PineyConsultant| PROjects-BeneFITSMougins, France
Aug 02, 2018 9:18 AM
Replying to Michael Effanga PMP PMI-PBA PMI-ACP
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Sergio, thank you for your contribution.
Can you explain what you mean by this 'Business Analyst work do not overlap Project Manager role. Not at all." bearing in mind that both roles work together towards successful value delivery
Michael,
I am convinced that there is a major confusion that needs clearing up: it is not the Project Manager who needs close collaboration and alignment with the Business Analyst, but the Program Manager. Project deliver a result or capability, whereas programs deliver business benefits. The link between the project manager and the business analyst should be via the program manager because the program manager is accountable to the business.
It could therefore be very instructive to rework the analysis based on a) the BABOK and b) the Standard for Program Management. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Aug 04, 2018 7:39 AM
Replying to Kik Piney
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Sergio. On the relationship between the PM and the BA: I did some thinking about this in 2011 and published a blog article that finished with this verse - adapted from the musical Oklahoma!
The PM and the BA should be friends
Oh, the PM and the BA should be friends
The PM likes to make a plan
The other serves the business man
But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.
Projectizing folks should stick together
Projectizing folks should all be mates
PMs work with BA’s data
BAs work to the PM’s dates.
Mon dieu, super!. Trying to emulate such a good poetry I usually said that the main diffrence between both is: business analyst must let those stakeholder fly while the project manager must make those stakeholders land. That is because business analyst is focused on solution while project manager is focused on activities to create the solution as defined and only as defined. Solution is because strategy must be put in action then is the mean for organizational survival, growth and development. Saving Changes...
Robin GoldsmithPresident| Go Pro Management Inc.Needham, Ma, United States
This seems to be confusing functions with titles. Business analysis involves identifying requirements that a project must satisfy in order to provide value. As such, business analysis is essential to any project; but the function frequently is performed by someone other than a ‘business analyst,’ often by the Project Manager him/herself. In fact, when I ask who is responsible for defining requirements, many of my seminar and presentation attendees say it’s the Project Manager.
Conversely, effective business analysis usually takes some project management, typically by those doing the business analysis, to identify necessary tasks, resources to perform those tasks, scheduling the tasks and resources, and monitoring/directing and adjusting the tasks’ performance.
These are essential aspects of projects, not by-products of a particular body of knowledge. PMBOK and BABOK presumably are intended to assure these aspects are accomplished adequately. Discussions like this suggest there still is plenty of room for improvement in the BOKs.
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2 replies by Kik Piney and Sergio Luis Conte
Aug 05, 2018 6:18 PM
Sergio Luis Conte
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People forgot something that is critical: there are two main types of requirements: product requirements and project requirements. Project requirements are defined from product requirements. Business analyst is accountable for product requirements while project manager is accountable for project requirements.
Aug 06, 2018 2:33 AM
Kik Piney
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Robin, the role (forget the title) of a BA is to define the correct projects. The role of the project manager is to deliver defined projects in accordance with their specifications.
Project managers rarely have control over non-project factors that could allow them to ensure achievement of the business objectives (e.g., to gain 10% market share by installing a new system). That is not their role (but too often is their burden because they accept it in the charter). The mindsets and skillsets of the two roles need to be different. Fitting all of this into a single individual is not impossible but it does not scale up effectively beyond very small initiatives: a one-man band can also compose its own tunes but it can never deliver a symphony.
Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Aug 05, 2018 5:34 PM
Replying to Robin Goldsmith
...
This seems to be confusing functions with titles. Business analysis involves identifying requirements that a project must satisfy in order to provide value. As such, business analysis is essential to any project; but the function frequently is performed by someone other than a ‘business analyst,’ often by the Project Manager him/herself. In fact, when I ask who is responsible for defining requirements, many of my seminar and presentation attendees say it’s the Project Manager.
Conversely, effective business analysis usually takes some project management, typically by those doing the business analysis, to identify necessary tasks, resources to perform those tasks, scheduling the tasks and resources, and monitoring/directing and adjusting the tasks’ performance.
These are essential aspects of projects, not by-products of a particular body of knowledge. PMBOK and BABOK presumably are intended to assure these aspects are accomplished adequately. Discussions like this suggest there still is plenty of room for improvement in the BOKs.
People forgot something that is critical: there are two main types of requirements: product requirements and project requirements. Project requirements are defined from product requirements. Business analyst is accountable for product requirements while project manager is accountable for project requirements.
People forgot something that is critical: there are two main types of requirements: product requirements and project requirements. Project requirements are defined from product requirements. Business analyst is accountable for product requirements while project manager is accountable for project requirements.
Agreed Saving Changes...
Kik PineyConsultant| PROjects-BeneFITSMougins, France
Aug 05, 2018 5:34 PM
Replying to Robin Goldsmith
...
This seems to be confusing functions with titles. Business analysis involves identifying requirements that a project must satisfy in order to provide value. As such, business analysis is essential to any project; but the function frequently is performed by someone other than a ‘business analyst,’ often by the Project Manager him/herself. In fact, when I ask who is responsible for defining requirements, many of my seminar and presentation attendees say it’s the Project Manager.
Conversely, effective business analysis usually takes some project management, typically by those doing the business analysis, to identify necessary tasks, resources to perform those tasks, scheduling the tasks and resources, and monitoring/directing and adjusting the tasks’ performance.
These are essential aspects of projects, not by-products of a particular body of knowledge. PMBOK and BABOK presumably are intended to assure these aspects are accomplished adequately. Discussions like this suggest there still is plenty of room for improvement in the BOKs.
Robin, the role (forget the title) of a BA is to define the correct projects. The role of the project manager is to deliver defined projects in accordance with their specifications.
Project managers rarely have control over non-project factors that could allow them to ensure achievement of the business objectives (e.g., to gain 10% market share by installing a new system). That is not their role (but too often is their burden because they accept it in the charter). The mindsets and skillsets of the two roles need to be different. Fitting all of this into a single individual is not impossible but it does not scale up effectively beyond very small initiatives: a one-man band can also compose its own tunes but it can never deliver a symphony. Saving Changes...
