Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Each person on this world can be a Scrum Master. The only thing they need is to understand the Scrum Guide and get practice on it. Scrum is not related to IT or any other domain. Saving Changes...
@Adrian Carlogea "Most PMs in IT have no formal authority over their team members (some of the team members being more senior then them) and also lack technical background."
I don't believe that this is the case. To get an IT PM contract they ask for IT background (sometimes even specialised knowledge). A true PM is the one approving the Time-sheets for the team members.
I haven't seen yet a project team member that is more senior than the PM. in my experience even middle managers are not members of the project team and PM is one of the few roles that can interact with the C level in the steering committee. It's not unusual fro a PM to chair a PSC where the CIO is a just a member and there are more senior people in the room.
It depends on the company, industry and even country. In many English speaking countries and especially in IT (but not just IT) it is possible to start your career in project management with no prior work experience. Many companies offer internship in project management so fresh graduates can become PMs in just a couple of years after graduation even if they have never worked before at all in anything.
These junior PMs are entry level employees at the same level as other entry level employees. When they start to work on their first projects (which usually are simple projects) they would work with more senior SMEs that are much senior than them and at a much higher pay. You must not confuse the organizational chart and employee seniority with the project structure, it is the organizational hierarchy that counts in the end.
For instance on the current project on which I am involved a middle manager who directly reports to the project sponsor also works as an ordinary team members on the team because he is a very good SME in his domain. In the project structure he is at the bottom not even a technical lead but in the company he is above team leaders. The PM to which he theoretical reports to on the project is much more junior that he is and nobody directly reports him in the organization. The PM is not a real manager in the organizational chart.
"I would not be surprised if in practice more Scrum Masters operate in command and control mode than PMs. That's because, at least in my opinion, is more likely for the SM to be a technical expert with technical leadership skills than the PM."
Interesting topic. I fully agree based on my experience of Dev Mgr implementing Scrum. I found difficult to not control and the team found difficult to not be controlled.
Yes but controlling the team requires technical background. If you are not a developer yourself you can't really control a software development team.
In software development Project Managers and Scrum Master who have never written a line of code in their lives can only be facilitators and nothing more.
The leadership style for many is not something they can choose but something they are forced to use. In my opinion servant leadership is actually a term used for people that theoretically have to lead something but lack the hard skills needed for the job. When you don't understand in detail what your team is doing you can't direct it but just support it. Saving Changes...
A project manager can play helpful role as scrum master. Not only PM will help facilitate sprint teams, but he/she should have more bandwidth to connect with other aspects of the project.
In general, the subject-matter-knowledge is very important, but PM doesn't have to be SMEs (like tech developer ...some might suggest).
Also, such setup depends on 'organization structure' and 'practices'. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Sep 28, 2018 8:19 PM
Replying to Adrian Carlogea
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Most PMs in IT have no formal authority over their team members (some of the team members being more senior then them) and also lack technical background. In these conditions there is no chance for command and control.
On the other hand I have seen many Scrum Teams in which the role of the Scrum Master was played by the lead developer and this resulted in real command and control.
I would not be surprised if in practice more Scrum Masters operate in command and control mode than PMs. That's because, at least in my opinion, is more likely for the SM to be a technical expert with technical leadership skills than the PM.
Those are not real PMs. A PM without authority is not a PM. The project team is by definition hierarchical. Technical skills are mot mandatory for a PM, that's why the PM hire technical leads. Management doesn't mean fixing bugs.
Among other duties The PM is responsible for work allocation, budget, risk management, Org change management and stakeholders management, skills that are rarely found in the development team.
Dev Managers and Lead developers will learn fast that the SM is not a technical role and they need to leave the dev team to take decisions. I agree that SMs that are junior members of the team become servants rather than servant leaders. SM is defined as a managerial role for a reason. you don't become a good SM after a 3 days course, regardless how good coder you are. A good coder should avoid the SM role because it is a waste to the team.
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1 reply by Adrian Carlogea
Sep 30, 2018 7:52 AM
Adrian Carlogea
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I have been working in IT for over 10 years in different roles both in projects and in operations but I have never seen a PM having formal authority over the project team or over the project resources in general. I am not saying this does not happen I just haven't seen it and I have worked for more than one company.
Not having formal authority has become the norm for many if not most PMs and in my opinion there are two main reasons for that:
- the project is temporary and because of this it does not have its own resources, the resources used in projects are being managed by the managers of the permanent structures of the organization;
- project management has become to a large extent a profession in its own right meaning that you can become a PM even if you don't have any other relevant work experience; becoming a real manager however requires relevant work experience in the domain you are about to manage; as a fresh graduate with no work experience (many PMs start their career this way) you can't be put in charge of a group of people with long years of relevant experience and some of them having leadership positions at the organization level.
Those are not real PMs. A PM without authority is not a PM. The project team is by definition hierarchical. Technical skills are mot mandatory for a PM, that's why the PM hire technical leads. Management doesn't mean fixing bugs.
Among other duties The PM is responsible for work allocation, budget, risk management, Org change management and stakeholders management, skills that are rarely found in the development team.
Dev Managers and Lead developers will learn fast that the SM is not a technical role and they need to leave the dev team to take decisions. I agree that SMs that are junior members of the team become servants rather than servant leaders. SM is defined as a managerial role for a reason. you don't become a good SM after a 3 days course, regardless how good coder you are. A good coder should avoid the SM role because it is a waste to the team.
I have been working in IT for over 10 years in different roles both in projects and in operations but I have never seen a PM having formal authority over the project team or over the project resources in general. I am not saying this does not happen I just haven't seen it and I have worked for more than one company.
Not having formal authority has become the norm for many if not most PMs and in my opinion there are two main reasons for that:
- the project is temporary and because of this it does not have its own resources, the resources used in projects are being managed by the managers of the permanent structures of the organization;
- project management has become to a large extent a profession in its own right meaning that you can become a PM even if you don't have any other relevant work experience; becoming a real manager however requires relevant work experience in the domain you are about to manage; as a fresh graduate with no work experience (many PMs start their career this way) you can't be put in charge of a group of people with long years of relevant experience and some of them having leadership positions at the organization level. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
I fully agree with @Adrian here about autority. In fact, that is the "art" component inside project management: you must do people work for the project without having formal autority on them. And what is most interesting: some of them could be the top management. @Adrian, what you stated about authority happends no matter you work on IT or any other domain. Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
@Adrian Carlogea"Yes but controlling the team requires technical background. If you are not a developer yourself you can't really control a software development team. In software development Project Managers and Scrum Master who have never written a line of code in their lives can only be facilitators and nothing more."
First of all the SM is a facilitator and nothing more. That role can be performed well without any technical skills, and some SM are very good at their job (as defined in the Scrum Guide) without having coding experience.
The idea that someone "who have never written a line of code in their lives can only be facilitator" is completely wrong (according to PMBoK). To be a good PM you need to master 9 knowledge areas and the technical and functional knowledge are not included. For planning, managing people, risks and finances in a project one doesn't need to know c++. he or she must have good managerial skills or knowledge. I've worked with very good PMs that didn't had a development background and with very bad PMs that were very good developers. I know many brilliant developers that failed as managers of their own company. Saving Changes...
Pench BattaEnterprise Lean Agile DevOps Coach /SAFe Program Consultant (SPC6)| Capgemini, Inc.Bentonville, Ar, United States
Sep 28, 2018 5:24 PM
Replying to Stelian ROMAN
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Absolutely. Anyone can be a good Scrum Master.It takes qualities and skills that are not learned in a 2 days course or by reading a 20 pages guide.
Most IT PMs were developers before moving to management, therefore they have a good foundation to understand the benefits of Scrum and the pitfalls
Moreover, many organisations are expecting a degree of command and control from the SM, a tricky situation when the team can't self manage..
Stelian, I agree most of the PMs with technical background as a developers. I also have the same kind of background. Saving Changes...
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