Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Some organisations are replacing the PM with Scrum Masters or are pushing the PM in a financial reporting corner.
Is there a place for the traditional PM responsible for scope, time, budget in the Agile world? Saving Changes...
John TiesoAuthor, Lecturer in Business Management| The Catholic University of America, Busch School of Business & EconomicsArlington, Va, United States
For those of us who watched the Agile Manifesto take hold quickly throughout the Systems Engineering world, let me suggest that projects do not always involve systems, and just as often involve transformational change across the enterprise. PMs will still be needed as the overall overseer of change, and may want to involve some form of agile in that effort. There is no real reason why they cannot live harmoniously, and, if in fact, they do, projects are often improved.
In my experience, few projects engage completely one method or technique. There relevant parts of one or more than 'fit' together like Lego blocks. Sometimes you use more of one color, and sometimes you use others. The objective is to have a PM who knows well the level of integration needed to ensure project success, and which of those methods and techniques will enable it.
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1 reply by Sergio Luis Conte
Jan 01, 2019 6:08 AM
Sergio Luis Conte
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Good to read this @John. Agile was born outside the software domain. The key when Agile was created was taken systemic theory as a foundation. Then is like you mentioned just understanding that system are not related to software systems. Implementations of Agile (using a method or not) fail when systemic theory is forgotten.
Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Dec 18, 2018 3:14 PM
Replying to Kiron Bondale
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This topic has been beaten to death in past discussion threads. See:
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Dec 18, 2018 3:52 PM
Replying to Lenka Pincot
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Thanks for your reply Stelian. I think you can’t separete discussion about agile methods from discussion about PM vs Scrum master. I understood what you were asking but for me these topics are connected. Because PM or Scrum master roles are related to methods of work.
Thanks for the side note though, I’ve learned AM SW methods while studying computer sciences more than 16 years ago. As for the agile enterprise concept, we just used different names, but there’s no change either. Some concepts get more attention due to marketing and that’s fair enough, I’m ok with that.
Thank you Lenka. Agile is older than AM. In early 90s DoD was looking for a new way to address change and established a team to create a new concept called Agile. Scrum originated from a paper written by Harward academics. Software development embraced those ideas faster than other domains. As a side note the Agile Enterprise concept was also defined in early 90s in manufacturing, where the kanban techniques is used since 1950s. About the same time incremental and iterative approach was used in software development. All the Agile (AM) frameworks were (software development) team oriented, not Enterprise frameworks.
More than 16 years ago I was a Development Manager implementing XP and Scrum :)
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1 reply by Lenka Pincot
Dec 18, 2018 6:18 PM
Lenka Pincot
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Someone had to pioneer that so we others can learn :) good for you!
Saving Changes...
Lenka PincotChief of Staff to the CEO| Project Management InstituteParis, France
Dec 18, 2018 4:25 PM
Replying to Stelian ROMAN
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Thank you Lenka. Agile is older than AM. In early 90s DoD was looking for a new way to address change and established a team to create a new concept called Agile. Scrum originated from a paper written by Harward academics. Software development embraced those ideas faster than other domains. As a side note the Agile Enterprise concept was also defined in early 90s in manufacturing, where the kanban techniques is used since 1950s. About the same time incremental and iterative approach was used in software development. All the Agile (AM) frameworks were (software development) team oriented, not Enterprise frameworks.
More than 16 years ago I was a Development Manager implementing XP and Scrum :)
Someone had to pioneer that so we others can learn :) good for you!
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1 reply by Stelian ROMAN
Dec 18, 2018 10:06 PM
Stelian ROMAN
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Apologies for the misunderstanding. 16 years ago i was not pioneering. Pioneering was in mid 80s when I was learning from others that started before me, I'm still learning .
Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Dec 18, 2018 3:52 PM
Replying to Lenka Pincot
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Thanks for your reply Stelian. I think you can’t separete discussion about agile methods from discussion about PM vs Scrum master. I understood what you were asking but for me these topics are connected. Because PM or Scrum master roles are related to methods of work.
Thanks for the side note though, I’ve learned AM SW methods while studying computer sciences more than 16 years ago. As for the agile enterprise concept, we just used different names, but there’s no change either. Some concepts get more attention due to marketing and that’s fair enough, I’m ok with that.
Lenka, some Agile frameworks (XP) still have the PM role. IMHO any framework can be Agile, including PMBoK because Agile is a set of values not a methodology. The Scrum Master role is also in other frameworks, not only in Scrum. I think that the Agile Guide allows the SM in the project team. I don't see why the 2 roles can't coexist.
Unlike the Agile in the AM, focused on better ways f developing software the Agile Enterprise concept was defined as a response to the need for rapid change. Similar but not the same :) Saving Changes...
Stelian ROMANProject Manager| MicroSafetyCarlingford, New South Wales, Australia
Dec 18, 2018 6:18 PM
Replying to Lenka Pincot
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Someone had to pioneer that so we others can learn :) good for you!
Apologies for the misunderstanding. 16 years ago i was not pioneering. Pioneering was in mid 80s when I was learning from others that started before me, I'm still learning . Saving Changes...
Project Mamagement is to stay for ever. AGILE/SCRUM etc. are top-ups for specific types of industries. The PM Concepts are fundamentals to AGILE,SCRUM etc. The execution approach will keep tailoring depending upon type of projects and industry specific requirements. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
Dec 18, 2018 4:04 PM
Replying to John Tieso
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For those of us who watched the Agile Manifesto take hold quickly throughout the Systems Engineering world, let me suggest that projects do not always involve systems, and just as often involve transformational change across the enterprise. PMs will still be needed as the overall overseer of change, and may want to involve some form of agile in that effort. There is no real reason why they cannot live harmoniously, and, if in fact, they do, projects are often improved.
In my experience, few projects engage completely one method or technique. There relevant parts of one or more than 'fit' together like Lego blocks. Sometimes you use more of one color, and sometimes you use others. The objective is to have a PM who knows well the level of integration needed to ensure project success, and which of those methods and techniques will enable it.
Good to read this @John. Agile was born outside the software domain. The key when Agile was created was taken systemic theory as a foundation. Then is like you mentioned just understanding that system are not related to software systems. Implementations of Agile (using a method or not) fail when systemic theory is forgotten. Saving Changes...
Sergio Luis ConteHelping to create solutions for everyone| Worldwide based OrganizationsBuenos Aires, Argentina
First of all, Scrum is not a synonym of Agile. DSDM is widely used in Europe (mainly UK) and this method has the project manager role defined into it. Second, thinking that Scum Master and project manager role are the same is a misunderstanding about Scrum. In Scrum the project manager role responsibilities are distributed between defined roles. But not problem with that. Saving Changes...
Mario CoquillatProject, Program and Portfolio consultant, mentor and trainer| CoquillatPMSan Pedro Del Pinatar, Murcia, Spain
I think project manager role must evolve, but not disappear.
Probably more focus on strategy and stakeholder management.
Also most of companies are looking for a hybrid approach, so you still need the role, specially because scrum master is not always a role, but some responsibilities developed by project team.
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1 reply by Piotr Przespolewski
Jan 07, 2019 4:15 AM
Piotr Przespolewski
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Strongly agree. I run several hybrid projects in Telco where we successfully combined waterfall with agile as there was not possible to fully switch to one of the model. Therefor evolution is the right way to follow.
"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared."