George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
Someone stated here...
"To complete the close project or close phase process, the close procurement process must have been completed; otherwise, the project closure or the phase closure cannot happen. However, this is not the case for a close procurement process where project closure is not required to complete the close procurement process"
Close procurement comes first, unless there are no procurements. But then again close project phase can occur before close procurements, if say a procurement occurs in the subsequent phase but not in the current phase being closed, or if a procurement transcends multiple phases in which it could be still "open" through any phase, including the current phase being closed. Also, procurements can be resurrected in the form of claims or litigation, so although a project may be closed for some time before that procurement pops up again, it really shouldn't be technically closed until all outstanding matters are resolved. Organizations will have policies on what constitutes a project close, and it may or may not align precisely with the PMBOK.
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1 reply by George Lewis
Aug 15, 2017 12:18 PM
George Lewis
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Sante - then why didn't the PMI put the Close Procurement process embedded within the Close Project process?
The question here, is why it’s the last process listed in the table…
Saving Changes...
George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
If procurement closing comes first, then why it is the project close activity first in the process order? Saving Changes...
Close procurement comes first as procurement management plan is a subsidiary plan to Project Management Plan as a whole.
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1 reply by George Lewis
Aug 15, 2017 8:00 AM
George Lewis
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Anjum - this makes sense, yet why does close project process comes first in the PMBOK process order listed in page 61?
Just for the record, I do agree with your answer, but, I need a stronger response to convince others.... :)
Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
Close procurement is part of the close project process group.
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1 reply by George Lewis
Aug 15, 2017 7:59 AM
George Lewis
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Hi Andrew, how are you? we know you're an expert in the topic, but question: is that statement true? or close procurement part of the closing process group? slightly different. Comments please?
One more question, according to your expertise what comes first then?
Two easy questions for you... and always thanks for your great responses...
Saving Changes...
George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
Aug 15, 2017 7:28 AM
Replying to Drew Craig
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Close procurement is part of the close project process group.
Hi Andrew, how are you? we know you're an expert in the topic, but question: is that statement true? or close procurement part of the closing process group? slightly different. Comments please?
One more question, according to your expertise what comes first then?
Two easy questions for you... and always thanks for your great responses...
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1 reply by Drew Craig
Aug 15, 2017 9:18 AM
Drew Craig
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Haha, thanks George. Certainly would not call myself an expert, simply a student of the profession ....
The reason I sum it up as part of the close process group is b/c it is an activity associated with the close process, happening either before or after depending on the specifics around it.
Some procurements are only part of a particular phase. Also, it may be necessary to close the project to free up resources to move onto other initiatives while procurements are closed. Project team members do not need to be part of those activities.
Saving Changes...
George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
Aug 15, 2017 6:04 AM
Replying to Anjum Rana
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Close procurement comes first as procurement management plan is a subsidiary plan to Project Management Plan as a whole.
Anjum - this makes sense, yet why does close project process comes first in the PMBOK process order listed in page 61?
Just for the record, I do agree with your answer, but, I need a stronger response to convince others.... :)
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1 reply by Vishakha Sharma
Aug 17, 2017 12:04 AM
Vishakha Sharma
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Hi George,
Page 58 of PMBOK says that - at a project closure we have to close out all procurement activities. Thus the procurements are closed first and once it is completed then the project can be considered as completed (ofcourse with other closure activities too). The table on page 61 is only about the Process Group and Knowledge Area Mapping (Just Mapping, not necessarily the sequence).
Also, procurement can happen at any stage of project and a procurement closure always happens at the end of procurement. Thus a procurement can close at any stage of a project. Whereas a project closure happens only at the end of project.
Another aspect is that a project can have multiple procurements involved. Thus there will be multiple procurements that need to be closed. And in case of project closure - there will be only one project closure. Therefore there can be multiple procurement closures (and at different stages of a project) but a single project closure at the end of each project.
Therefore I would say project closure comes after procurement closure. And the page 61's table is just a mapping and not a sequential process list.
Hope this helps. Happy to discuss further!
Thanks & regards,
Vishakha Sharma
Saving Changes...
Drew CraigSr. Agile & Product Coach| VanguardPhiladelphia, Pa, United States
Aug 15, 2017 7:59 AM
Replying to George Lewis
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Hi Andrew, how are you? we know you're an expert in the topic, but question: is that statement true? or close procurement part of the closing process group? slightly different. Comments please?
One more question, according to your expertise what comes first then?
Two easy questions for you... and always thanks for your great responses...
Haha, thanks George. Certainly would not call myself an expert, simply a student of the profession ....
The reason I sum it up as part of the close process group is b/c it is an activity associated with the close process, happening either before or after depending on the specifics around it.
Some procurements are only part of a particular phase. Also, it may be necessary to close the project to free up resources to move onto other initiatives while procurements are closed. Project team members do not need to be part of those activities. Saving Changes...
George LewisProgram/Project Manager| DXC Technology CompanyHeredia, Costa Rica
Aug 15, 2017 5:54 AM
Replying to Sante Delle-Vergini, PhD
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Close procurement comes first, unless there are no procurements. But then again close project phase can occur before close procurements, if say a procurement occurs in the subsequent phase but not in the current phase being closed, or if a procurement transcends multiple phases in which it could be still "open" through any phase, including the current phase being closed. Also, procurements can be resurrected in the form of claims or litigation, so although a project may be closed for some time before that procurement pops up again, it really shouldn't be technically closed until all outstanding matters are resolved. Organizations will have policies on what constitutes a project close, and it may or may not align precisely with the PMBOK.
Sante - then why didn't the PMI put the Close Procurement process embedded within the Close Project process?
The question here, is why it’s the last process listed in the table… Saving Changes...
Close Project comes first in the table on p. 61 of the PMBOK because it is part of the Project Integration Management knowledge area, which is the first knowledge area listed. Is the list sequential? Somewhat. But consider that Develop Project Charter is at the top of the Initiating process group and Identify Stakeholders is at the bottom. You don't have to identify ALL stakeholders before you can create the charter, but you might have a hard time finishing the charter if you don't know a few key stakeholders.
Another consideration is the timing of when you start something versus when you finish it. You might start closing your project before you start closing procurements, but you might close a procurement long before you even start closing a project. For all intents and purposes, I would not consider a project closed if a procurement were still open.
In short, the table on p. 61 is not strictly sequential, and many of the processes can be run multiple times throughout a project.
Does this make sense?
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1 reply by George Lewis
Aug 15, 2017 12:38 PM
George Lewis
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Aaron - this is an interesting debate and it's totally wrong to disagree... so... I must say I DO THINK THAT THE LIST IS SEQUENTIAL and I somewhat have some proof, but I'll let the discussion continue :)...
I'll post a separece discussion around what comes first the project charter or the identify stakeholder, and I'll comment my disagreement there...
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