Velocity, better stop using it!

interesting!

can you please expand on this "very interesting that the person credited to invent them apologized for inventing them." ?

thanks!

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 7:42 AM

Absolutely right that story points / velocity are relative metrics. Trying to compare the velocities of two teams is like trying to determine why a local baseball team isn't scoring as many points as a local basketball team.

I've seen user stories and story points used successfully on scrum teams, though. Scrum is just a framework for development & delivery, there's nothing that says you must you points, and nothing that says you can't.

I would argue, though, that an organization that isn't Lean cannot be- and never was- Agile. Lean manufacturing principles and practice predated the Agile Manifesto, and software movements such as Agile and DevOps are flagrantly built upon the history of lean success.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 12:55 PM

(I really must learn to read my own comments more carefully, since they can't be edited!)

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 12:56 PM

I wouldn't say that velocity is completely useless, but I agree that it is usually inappropriately used.

Velocity was never intended to be used to compare two teams. Rather, it can be used to see how a team improves their performance over time, if the team membership remains consistent. Those organizations who use velocity to rank teams are likely the same ones who misused defect measurement and remediation in the past, or lines of code counts before that.

As a wise person once said, it's a poor craftsman who blames the tool.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 3:27 PM

Hi Al.
The person credited with inventing Story Points is Ron Jeffries, one of the co-authors of the XP framework. In one of his books he noted:"These were originally invented to obscure the time aspect, so that management wouldn’t be tempted to misuse the estimates. I know: I was there when they were invented. I may actually have invented Points. If I did, I’m sorry now.
There is also a related discussion where Ron explains the reason for the burndown chart, another often misused technique. All his team wanted to achieve was quiet. They had a manager that needed to feel in control and the burndown chart made him very happy.
After using both techniques (SP and Burndown) for over 15 years my personal view is that they are good if the outcome is not visible outside the development team.
There is a whole science of project estimation and benchmarking using Function Points. It is not easy, it is not perfect but it's the best that exists. Using FP one can compare teams and organisations. Moreover, they can be used to compare Agile with planned approaches. Many will be surprised that in terms of efficiency the planned approach usually wins.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 6:48 PM

Wade, you can edit. Just copy paste and then remove the original version and create a new comment.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 6:49 PM

Glenn, my statement that it is useless is based on two reasons:
1) it doesn't add any value to the end product. At the release day It's really irrelevant how fast or slow the development was done.
2) it is too easy to be gamed, and most teams are doing it, sometimes without even knowing

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 6:51 PM

Wade, thank you for confirming my "insanity":
"I would argue, though, that an organization that isn't Lean cannot be- and never was- Agile. Lean manufacturing principles and practice predated the Agile Manifesto, and software movements such as Agile and DevOps are flagrantly built upon the history of lean success."
If you have time please watch some of my webinars on the Agile Enterprise. I will sincerely appreciate your feedback.
I always challenged Agile 'gurus' to take the Lean Six Sigma certification from ASQ as a proof that they understand Lean and can measure the benefits of Agile. So far I never met an Agile Coach/Trainer that understands Lean Six Sigma. At the endo of the day, Agile is another process improvement approach, "better ways of developing" but there is no hard evidence that it works all the time. Even when it works there is are no metrics to prove how significant the impact is.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 7:02 PM

Glenn "As a wise person once said, it's a poor craftsman who blames the tool ". It was a very wise person.
Other wise persons invented Six Sigma. It took 300 years of mathematicians and managers to create a good tool that can be used to measure "how a team improves their performance over time".
Unfortunately, that's too hard for someone that can't read more than a 15 pages guide.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 7:05 PM

@Stelian...thanks so much for the details...very interesting. To me burndown charts seem very useful. Re points....I have participated in one Fibonacci exercise....one guy suggested a number like 11 for one relatively complex task for one of my relatively complex tasks (on a different platform) I suggested some number between 150 & 200......:) Using Fibonacci numbers for points is one of those things that I understand and don't understand at the same time %*%*% Many years ago I accepted that there are some things I will never understand.

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 9:07 PM

Hi Al. It is always good to know what was done before the Agile hype. The burn-down chart is useful when it means something.it become useless when the metric used is relative (like SP). For example a burn-down with items open/closed when the team has the maturity to create items that are similar in size it is good to estimate how much will be completed before the release day.
Fibonacci numbers should be used only to indicate the degree of confidence in estimation. from 13 onward the value of the point is significantly different that the 1-5 sizes. People make the mistake of adding story points and then multiply the result with something to get the cost or to draw Gantt charts. Each tool should be used as designed. If you want to estimate cost then either use bottom up based on WBS or a gut feeling ballpark. If you want total time do the same: estimate everything in days/hours and then add them. when a 4 hours task become a Fibonacci 5 you are cheating with the time value of 1 point. Adding up you will technically cheat with days if not weeks for a team of 7.and a sprint of 1 month,

Posted: Apr 4, 2019 10:50 PM

I enjoyed reading this from one of my searches...

"Ok, this isn’t exactly a concrete reason that the Fibonacci Sequence is a better scale to use than others, but the word "Fibonacci" does sound cool and can help with adoption, and buy-in."

Posted: Apr 5, 2019 10:43 AM

Stelian, I think we're both saying essentially the same thing - that velocity is useless in terms of getting projects done. It has merely given bean-counters beans to count, and foolish managers arbitrary metrics to measure against.

Posted: Apr 5, 2019 2:01 PM

Velocity across teams certainly should not be compared across teams. They are specific to that particular team. Even if any team member(s) change, there will be an impact to that previous velocity. One main issue is many seem to think story points equate to hours, and lose sight of their relative nature. Their meaning gets lost up to leadership.
Another note, comments are not able to be edited (includes removing) once submitted. This has been a consistent ask of the community for updates.

Posted: Apr 6, 2019 8:20 PM

@Andrew. Story Points are hours, or as their inventor said:"an obfuscation of time". One big issue with Story Points is that they can't (or should not) be used on anything else than User Stories. Assigning "story" points to defects and technical task is not what the author intended. In Scrum the Backlog is not a list of user stories but a list of (backlog) items.
It takes a lot of research and practice to master story points correctly, more than becoming good at task estimation in hours.

Posted: Apr 6, 2019 9:45 PM

Thank you very much for your efforts.it's very good Topic.

Posted: Apr 8, 2019 10:20 AM

Dear Stelian
Interesting your perspective on the topic: "Velocity, better stop using it!"
Thanks for sharing

Important point to highlight: "There is no way that 2 teams, even in the same organization, can have the same understanding of what a Story Point is"

Posted: Jan 20, 2020 11:42 AM