Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
In the closing phase, upon final review of performance and creating the closing the report , how do you evaluate the success of the project ? Just in simple steps. Saving Changes...
PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHIGeneral Manager| Transrail Lighting LimitedNainital, Uttrakhand, India
Jan 31, 2016 2:31 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Thanks Pankaj: This is all great but do you measure for example how many non-conformance reports did you receive ? How many changes did you do ?
I meant to say, all what you said is very true but this is the big picture, do you look at the small details as well in your evaluation ?
Hi Rami: We don't measure anything at closure stage. During monitoring and control process we do check for any non-conformance or any approved change is done or not.
Closure here is generally for final verification of complete scope. As you know in EPC projects closure is the toughest part. They will keep giving you a list of punch points(already verified scope) to comply. Sometime customer will ask for minor gold plating(something which is expected but not clear in scope). This part needs a lot of care but same time you will have pressure from management to collect the final payments.
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Jan 31, 2016 2:53 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Well, you have a point and this is why there is something called: "Flawless" these days where you close the punch list as you go with the project so when you are near completion, the snag or punch list is very minimal making closing somehow reasonable but I understand your point if view in EPC Projects.
During M&C, you check for NCR but at the end of the project, when you do the certifications, you have a summary table for all NCR's, CAR's, Rework. We usually measure these against other projects to determine another factor of success.
Saving Changes...
Anonymous
Jan 31, 2016 2:34 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Hi Mounir,
This article is great and this is exactly why I raised my question due to the Gaps in identifying Project Success Criteria.
It is not always about satisfaction, money and schedule ... These are the big picture but there are other factors that definitely should be evaluated.
What other factors do you mean?
Our four dimensions is about measuring four dimensions of success (technical, project management, delivery, and objective). Underneath each dimension there will be the various KPI / Performance Metrics.
For example - on PM success - what is the criteria used? On or below budget and on are ahead of schedule or a tolerance of plus and minus 10% is acceptable?
Technical / Product Success - is this about zero defects to be successful or a small percentage of defects is tolerate?
And so on - so I understand what you are looking for and it is not one dimension or one criterion - it has to be much deeper than that.
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Jan 31, 2016 2:56 PM
Rami Kaibni
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Not really Mounir, what I am looking for lies exactly under these four dimensions but those four dimensions are the big picture.
All I want to know is different point of view on what are their success criteria under each of the dimensions you've mentioned. Hope this clear the issue.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Jan 31, 2016 2:44 PM
Replying to PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
...
Hi Rami: We don't measure anything at closure stage. During monitoring and control process we do check for any non-conformance or any approved change is done or not.
Closure here is generally for final verification of complete scope. As you know in EPC projects closure is the toughest part. They will keep giving you a list of punch points(already verified scope) to comply. Sometime customer will ask for minor gold plating(something which is expected but not clear in scope). This part needs a lot of care but same time you will have pressure from management to collect the final payments.
Well, you have a point and this is why there is something called: "Flawless" these days where you close the punch list as you go with the project so when you are near completion, the snag or punch list is very minimal making closing somehow reasonable but I understand your point if view in EPC Projects.
During M&C, you check for NCR but at the end of the project, when you do the certifications, you have a summary table for all NCR's, CAR's, Rework. We usually measure these against other projects to determine another factor of success.
...
1 reply by PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
Jan 31, 2016 3:10 PM
PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
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You have raised a good point.
We usually have long duration fixed price contracts and final performance of each contract depends upon various factors. Sometime we have finance problem from management or payment issues with customer. Lot of claims, scope change, delays, penalties or time extensions are involved. Also Many time a lot of work happens to be scope creep or gold plating, just to please the customer. Surely it is difficult to analyse such conditions because each contract follow a different issues.
However our PMO is monitoring final performance based upon previous experience(usually financial returns, time and experience with customer) and it sends input to BD team for future business with same customer.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Not really Mounir, what I am looking for lies exactly under these four dimensions but those four dimensions are the big picture.
All I want to know is different point of view on what are their success criteria under each of the dimensions you've mentioned. Hope this clear the issue. Saving Changes...
PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHIGeneral Manager| Transrail Lighting LimitedNainital, Uttrakhand, India
Jan 31, 2016 2:53 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Well, you have a point and this is why there is something called: "Flawless" these days where you close the punch list as you go with the project so when you are near completion, the snag or punch list is very minimal making closing somehow reasonable but I understand your point if view in EPC Projects.
During M&C, you check for NCR but at the end of the project, when you do the certifications, you have a summary table for all NCR's, CAR's, Rework. We usually measure these against other projects to determine another factor of success.
You have raised a good point.
We usually have long duration fixed price contracts and final performance of each contract depends upon various factors. Sometime we have finance problem from management or payment issues with customer. Lot of claims, scope change, delays, penalties or time extensions are involved. Also Many time a lot of work happens to be scope creep or gold plating, just to please the customer. Surely it is difficult to analyse such conditions because each contract follow a different issues.
However our PMO is monitoring final performance based upon previous experience(usually financial returns, time and experience with customer) and it sends input to BD team for future business with same customer.
...
1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Jan 31, 2016 4:27 PM
Rami Kaibni
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That makes lots of sense, thanks for sheding a light on this Pankaj.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Jan 31, 2016 3:10 PM
Replying to PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
...
You have raised a good point.
We usually have long duration fixed price contracts and final performance of each contract depends upon various factors. Sometime we have finance problem from management or payment issues with customer. Lot of claims, scope change, delays, penalties or time extensions are involved. Also Many time a lot of work happens to be scope creep or gold plating, just to please the customer. Surely it is difficult to analyse such conditions because each contract follow a different issues.
However our PMO is monitoring final performance based upon previous experience(usually financial returns, time and experience with customer) and it sends input to BD team for future business with same customer.
That makes lots of sense, thanks for sheding a light on this Pankaj. Saving Changes...
Pravin, that's true and you might have missed customer satisfaction as well but as I mentioned to Pankaj, those are the big picture, do you look at the small picture / details ? If yes, what are those details ?
Yes, we take it as user experience. Saving Changes...
Khai Ng.IT PMO | IT Project Manager| TTGROUPHanoi, Viet Nam
Jan 31, 2016 2:33 PM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
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Nguyen: This is one criteria for measuring success so I understand from what you said is that if the project went over budget but the client was satisfied then you consider your project a success ?
Rami, you know, projects are rarely completed in/on time, budget, with 100 percent meet customers' requirements unless we did over estimate time and cost with limit number of very SMART requirements. Of course, all criteria must be specified and are carefully measured and assessed during project execution to know if we meet project/ phase objectives, but in the end, the satisfaction of key stakeholders then decides the project is succeed or not.
I said "the satisfaction of not only customer but also the sponsor. In addition, we need to care about the satisfaction of other key stakeholders". Some projects complete meet all of their objectives but customer refuse the results as they don't need them anymore, the products are useless for their business just because of business changes after that. Some projects satisfy customer but not sponsor and also other key stakeholders. In my point of view, a project is considered to be truly succeed when it satisfy all parties and its' product bring benefit to all in the long run. So, we often say "the degree of success" a project has is...
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1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Feb 02, 2016 2:57 AM
Rami Kaibni
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Nguyen, I somehow agree but mostly disagree with you.
1- Many projects I've worked in were completed on time and within budget. Contingency reserves and management reserves plays a big role here - Not over estimating time and cost.
2- If the client did not accept the deliverable because he doesn't want it then why the project was initiated ? Why there was no regular scope validation ? If this happens then this is very poor PM Practice.
3- The issue of the product bringing benefit to all in the long run is something evaluated during the evaluation phase prior to initiating the project and if it aligns with the strategic views of the organization and goals then it is considered and those benefits are stated in the business case in addition to the measurable objectives.
Senior Projects Manager | Field & Marten AssociatesNew Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
Feb 01, 2016 10:03 AM
Replying to Khai Ng.
...
Rami, you know, projects are rarely completed in/on time, budget, with 100 percent meet customers' requirements unless we did over estimate time and cost with limit number of very SMART requirements. Of course, all criteria must be specified and are carefully measured and assessed during project execution to know if we meet project/ phase objectives, but in the end, the satisfaction of key stakeholders then decides the project is succeed or not.
I said "the satisfaction of not only customer but also the sponsor. In addition, we need to care about the satisfaction of other key stakeholders". Some projects complete meet all of their objectives but customer refuse the results as they don't need them anymore, the products are useless for their business just because of business changes after that. Some projects satisfy customer but not sponsor and also other key stakeholders. In my point of view, a project is considered to be truly succeed when it satisfy all parties and its' product bring benefit to all in the long run. So, we often say "the degree of success" a project has is...
Nguyen, I somehow agree but mostly disagree with you.
1- Many projects I've worked in were completed on time and within budget. Contingency reserves and management reserves plays a big role here - Not over estimating time and cost.
2- If the client did not accept the deliverable because he doesn't want it then why the project was initiated ? Why there was no regular scope validation ? If this happens then this is very poor PM Practice.
3- The issue of the product bringing benefit to all in the long run is something evaluated during the evaluation phase prior to initiating the project and if it aligns with the strategic views of the organization and goals then it is considered and those benefits are stated in the business case in addition to the measurable objectives.
...
1 reply by PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
Feb 02, 2016 3:49 AM
PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHI
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Rami, In someway Nguyen is correct. In many cases, You will get very tight budget and schedule to execute. In long duration contract, escalation also plays an important role. One is lucky if he receives all resources on time and if he has sufficient risk contingencies to complete the project. I also participate in bidding of new projects and I have seen many EPC projects were taken with a lot of risk to compete in the market.
Even there is no regular scope validation, Client sometime asks a lot of changes in scope. You follow all PM practices but still some fixed price contracts becomes nightmare, due to contractual risks.
In some IT/product development project the final product becomes obsolete to customer requirements. Closure of such project is really difficult. That's why many projects are abandoned and closure is done at middle stage.
Saving Changes...
PANKAJ KUMAR JOSHIGeneral Manager| Transrail Lighting LimitedNainital, Uttrakhand, India
Feb 02, 2016 2:57 AM
Replying to Rami Kaibni
...
Nguyen, I somehow agree but mostly disagree with you.
1- Many projects I've worked in were completed on time and within budget. Contingency reserves and management reserves plays a big role here - Not over estimating time and cost.
2- If the client did not accept the deliverable because he doesn't want it then why the project was initiated ? Why there was no regular scope validation ? If this happens then this is very poor PM Practice.
3- The issue of the product bringing benefit to all in the long run is something evaluated during the evaluation phase prior to initiating the project and if it aligns with the strategic views of the organization and goals then it is considered and those benefits are stated in the business case in addition to the measurable objectives.
Rami, In someway Nguyen is correct. In many cases, You will get very tight budget and schedule to execute. In long duration contract, escalation also plays an important role. One is lucky if he receives all resources on time and if he has sufficient risk contingencies to complete the project. I also participate in bidding of new projects and I have seen many EPC projects were taken with a lot of risk to compete in the market.
Even there is no regular scope validation, Client sometime asks a lot of changes in scope. You follow all PM practices but still some fixed price contracts becomes nightmare, due to contractual risks.
In some IT/product development project the final product becomes obsolete to customer requirements. Closure of such project is really difficult. That's why many projects are abandoned and closure is done at middle stage.
...
1 reply by Rami Kaibni
Feb 02, 2016 4:03 AM
Rami Kaibni
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I agree with what you've mentioned somehow but not totally. You need to spend time on planning - There are contractual obligations and rights which you should be aware of and there are limitations on how much change the client can order and the list goes on.
My disagreement with Nguyen is mainly on the client rejecting the product because he doesnt want it anymore and the issue of evaluating the end product at the end not in the beginning.
Just to be clear, I am talking from large construction projects point of view, not IT. Maybe IT is different but it shouldnt as construction is much more complex in size, design, coordination, etc. Yet, I had so many successful experiences on complex jobs. It all goes down how well you plan, how well you communicate and how well you monitor smd control.