Falling Through the Gender Gap?

Thanks for the update. I am sure Lenka will be very interested in this issue of the PM Network.

Posted: May 1, 2018 10:26 AM

I think the gender gap is narrowing down faster in some country, that would impact the gap in other countries.

Some legislation put in place law that facilitate it. Here, for example, maternity leave is now parental leave that can be used by either parent.

Thanks for pointing the article

Posted: May 1, 2018 1:50 PM

The gender gap exists in second and third world countries, and it's not right, not fair, and should be eradicated. So I will start with that before once again stating that the gender gap does not exist in first world countries (any longer). The debate is not assisted by individual examples of how someone experienced one male getting paid more than another female, which seems to be the temptation in this topic. Likewise, fuzzy numbers such as the total percentage gap of females salaries compared to male can be debunked by any amateur statistician. Further, these fuzzy stats never compare apples with apples, ie. same qualifications, same experience, same number of years worked in the domain, no break from work for long periods of time such as with pregnancy or child rearing, risk to life and health in some jobs which raises the salary rate, bonuses and promotions based on staying in the job for a longer period of time without said breaks, choice of occupation, and the list goes on. When you factor in all these things, which a handful of credible sources have done, the gender gap disappears. Finally, something that generalists who subscribe to this theory never acknowledge: It is illegal to pay someone more based on gender (when comparing apples with apples), and that is why you don't see the courts littered with gender gap charges, only headlines, lazy statisticians and people who just plainly ignore the facts. I am not going to discuss the fuzzy numbers in this issue of the PM Network; plenty of credible sources have debunked those stats so many times already. I usually get berated when I speak this way, but so does anyone who speaks the truth surrounded by misinformed viewpoints. I grew up in a house of feminists. My mother is a psychologist, my sister is a barrister, and my daughter has a doctorate in forensic psychology. They have in their own way championed women's issues, run programs promoting same, and are not afraid to express their opinion. "Real" phenomena like domestic violence, child abuse, and medical issues affecting only females (ie. certain cancers). So if anything, I would say that I have been more exposed to all viewpoints growing up that most people. Each one of them believes that there is no gender gap, feminism isn't what it use to be, and don't describe themselves as feminists any longer. The struggle was won long ago; the gender gap included (in first world countries). Now, if people are so concerned about the gender in other countries, which effects many more millions of people (billions in fact) than in first word countries, how about doing something about that and putting your efforts where it really matters. Women are abused, restricted, ridiculed, raped, tortured and shackled like cattle in so many countries...and yes paid less. Let's focus on eradicating that rather than constantly being subjected to this red herring. For example, in the Philippines, where you can pay an employee whatever you want, for any reason, including their gender. I have seen ads for "Female only", and "Male only". In the projects and organizations I worked for where I had control over salaries, not only did I make sure that the genders were paid exactly the same, but I made a point of letting higher management and the owners know about the fact that it was a policy I would implement or not be involved in the project or company at all. A few of the BPO organizations in the Philippines have policies initiated by me and are perhaps the first ones in the industry. Sure some of the organizations pay lip service, but try and find their written policies on the matter, and even better, evidence that it is in fact followed through. But change has to start somewhere right? Are we honestly saying that we need or should start that change by looking for examples of a non-existent gender gap in first world countries? And if you happen to find one, and many here in this forum and others have given examples of, why are you not in the courts where you (or the person you are referring to) would win a settlement very easily? I put it to you that we should be focusing on "real" issues that affect women in all countries, including real gender gap issues that face women in second and third world countries.

Posted: May 1, 2018 5:55 PM

I have not read the article, but are the authors truly analysing the causes for this very apparent pay gap? Given that the panel consists of four project managers and zero statistical analysts, one would think not.

There are a variety of studies that show - in general in a variety of instances - that this pay gap is not attributable to gender bias (whether active, passive, conscious, or unconscious). Two ready examples include a study conducted by Uber that found a 7% gap despite its gender blind algorithm (Fortune article: http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/uber-gender-pay-gap-study/); and another analysis on the Simpson Paradox and its applicability to the gender bias scenario (The BBC podcast More or Less devoted a couple of episodes to this analysis).

The underlying theme in both these (and numerous other) examples show that the disparity in pay cannot be attributed to gender bias - and that there is no evidence of an active gender bias. There are a variety of other factors that need to be reviewed.

A deeper analysis is required into the data retrieved from the Project Management Salary Survey - with follow-up surveys - to ascertain whether the pay gap is truly attributable to gender bias. And if not, what the other mitigating factors are.

Posted: May 1, 2018 11:51 PM

Sante, your post is bigger than the article.. excellent mate

Posted: May 2, 2018 3:05 AM

lol I know I know Kevin :-)

Posted: May 2, 2018 6:48 AM

Thanks for sharing

Posted: May 2, 2018 4:39 PM

Kevin LOL I was thinking the same about Sante that his post is bigger than the article, Sante I applause your effort and time to right that long.

My only concern with this gender gap about the Transgender, shemale, or ladyboy in Philippines / Thailand. I have seen this 3rd gender getting less paid or harassed in some countries too.
In our company now we have a w/c water closet with no mark on it for male or for female to satisfy the regularity authority for equal employer :)

Posted: May 2, 2018 7:07 PM

Riyadh, sometimes I ramble on a bit lol.

Regarding transgenders, the Philippines is actually very accepting of them, which contradicts their overtly religious society. When you watch TV, news, soap dramas etc, you will see in almost all of them they have transgenders. In the call center and BPO environments where I have most exposure to, they are overly represented, in some cases 10% or more of the total workforce in that company. So it is disturbing when organizations choose to strictly apply principles such as dress code based on birth gender, but would never dream of advocating this position in the public arena.

Posted: May 2, 2018 9:42 PM

Sante, you are right they have quite large numbers overthere but like India/ Pakistan they're been abused alot

Posted: May 2, 2018 10:11 PM

True Riyadh.

Posted: May 2, 2018 10:23 PM

Page 2 : )

Thanks, Dan. My go-to commute reading.

Posted: May 3, 2018 6:36 AM

I agree with Sante, it looks like there are lots of challenges for closing the gender gap in developing countries.

Thanks for sharing, Dan!!

Posted: May 3, 2018 11:10 AM

Sante -

Are you refuting the analysis from the US Census regarding the gender wage gap for management occupations done by HBR: https://hbr.org/2018/02/what-the-data-says-about-women-in-management-between-1980-and-2010 ?

Kiron

Posted: May 3, 2018 5:37 PM

Kiron,

Absolutely! I am refuting the analysis that women are paid less given almost identical situations, but not disputing that women are paid less. These are two very different things. By the author's own admission, they used: "womens representation in management, the occupational gender segregation among managers, and the gender wage gaps that vary across managerial occupations." To which I would say, is that it? That does not take into account a multitude of other factors that skew the numbers.

The Economist actually sees through this smoke and mirrors:

"In the rich and middle-income countries that make up the OECD, the median wage of a woman working full-time is 85% that of a man. This is not, as many assume, because employers pay a woman less than they would have paid a man in her place. Data from 25 countries collected by Korn Ferry, a consultancy, show that women earn 98% as much as men who do the same job for the same employer. The real reason is twofold. Women outnumber men in positions with lower salaries and little chance of promotion. And men and women are segregated between occupations and industries; those where women predominate pay less."

And there are many mores factors in addition to the "twofold" mentioned above. I only take stock, as most serious analysts and statisticians do, in surveys that will compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges.

Now apart from the so-called gender wage gap, what about women in positions of power and senior management? Why do women who graduate from business degrees at the same rate of men, only get one in five senior executive positions? The Economist yet again blows the smoke away:

"A possible reason is that managers are reluctant to promote women who are starting families, or are likely to do so soon. It so happens that the opportunity for the critical first promotion often coincides with wanting to start a family. Data from Britain show that the age at which womens pay starts to fall behind mens tracks the age at which they typically have their first child."

Oh surprise surprise The Economist, do tell me more...

"Of women with children at home, 44-75% had scaled back after becoming mothers, by working fewer hours or switching to a less demanding job, such as one requiring less travel or overtime. Only 13-37% of fathers said they had done so, of whom more than half said their partner had also scaled back."

You mean to tell me that women who had families, also chose to work less or take less demanding jobs? Hmm that might just be a reason to be under-represented in senior executive jobs. But I am not totally convinced yet, please give me something I can really put my finger on...

"Some new mothers leave their jobs because they prefer to be their childrens main carers."

Now wait a minute, do you mean to tell me that in addition to working less and taking less demanding jobs, some women just quit the workforce altogether and perhaps return at a later date because they believe no one else is better suited to raise their children but them? Perish the thought. Call the Gender Police. These selfish mothers who dare to choose their children over a career are to blame for the gender gap. They cannot call themselves real women because a real woman is defined by making sure they earn the same as men EVEN if they work less hours, value raising children more, or choose to drop out.

But is that really true? Of course not! What has our society come to when a parent (predominantly women) cannot choose to raise their children over increased pay or a promotion, without gender gap fantasists pointing to fuzzy numbers in some survey that refuses to factor in this demographic?

Am I a sexist because I hold this view? Oh please I won't even dignify that with a response. I respect women more than fuzzy statisticians, and in fact believe that women work harder than men, handle a lot more responsibility, and balance competing requirements a lot more often than men. Why? Simply because many women choose family and work, or just family, and the raising of children has to be the number one hardest, yet most rewarding, job on the planet. It is also without pay, or a promotion, and is not at threat of being bastardized in smoking mirror surveys.

To all women, I respect you, and adore you. Thanks for working hard at work and at home. Continue to be the main guiders of the next generation. For those of you who can make both raising children and career work, then more power to you; these are the real super women. I can only hope that you are one of the honest ones who knows exactly why some women are paid less than men, and not fall victim to the false narrative that there is a real gender gap based on apples vs apples.

Source: https://www.economist.com/news/international/21729993-women-still-earn-lot-less-men-despite-decades-equal-pay-laws-why-gender

Posted: May 4, 2018 11:58 PM

Thanks for sharing

Posted: May 8, 2018 11:47 PM