PMI Global Insights

By: Ming Yeung, PMP

In March, Dr. Vanita Ahuja and I co-presented at PMI's PMXPO 2025. This was a great event with featured speakers, exhibits, and networking activities. Our presentation, "From Projects to Products: Redefining Roles in the Modern Workplace,” focused on two project professionals with interesting yet distinct transitions from a product manager/owner to a project/program manager. With the rise of product management and product-led organizational strategies, strong collaboration between product and project managers has become essential. PMI's recent Maximizing Project Success research shows that 39% of respondents' most recent projects were in product development, indicating these roles frequently interact in organizations today.

Project managers provide essential skills that enable teams to deliver products efficiently and effectively while meeting customer expectations. Their ability to adapt, lead, and drive results ensures they remain indispensable in an evolving landscape where the distinction between product and project continues to blur.

At the conclusion of this session, are goals were to:
• Identify the business value that can be delivered through effective collaboration between these roles.
• Recognize the shared foundational skill set essential for success in both product and project management roles.
• Analyze real-world examples of successful collaboration between product and project management, identifying good practices that contribute to effective teamwork.

Q&A

During my presentation, I received a lot of great questions that we didn’t get a chance to cover, and my responses are below.

Question: Are diverse industries truly ready to embrace candidates transitioning from other domains? Despite my qualifications and PMP, I’m hitting roadblocks.
Answer: Each industry possesses its own culture and operational nuances, making transitions a challenge yet also a tremendous opportunity. My career path—from product innovation to project discipline and finally a hybrid program directorship—shows that transferable skills matter. While a PMP is a strong credential, real impact comes from connecting your varied experiences to industry-specific outcomes. Articulate your unique value by presenting case studies or success metrics that resonate with your target sector. Networking with domain insiders and seeking specialized certifications can also help bridge any knowledge gaps, demonstrating both your versatility and your commitment to mastering the new industry’s challenges.

Question: Is transitioning from project to product management harder than the reverse? How do we gain credibility and domain knowledge?
Answer: The difficulty of moving from project to product management—or vice versa—depends on personal experience and organizational context. Transitioning to product management usually means developing deep market insight and customer empathy, while moving toward project management emphasizes structure, timelines, and risk control. To gain credibility in a new role, immerse yourself in the domain: pursue targeted learning, mentoring, and hands-on projects. Highlight successes that showcase your ability to adapt and integrate diverse methodologies. Building a narrative that connects your project discipline with product innovation not only bridges the experience gap but also demonstrates your capacity to deliver balanced, high-impact outcomes.

Question: How do project and product management intersect and evolve together?
Answer: Project and product management intersect in the balance between strategic vision and meticulous execution. Over my career, I’ve witnessed how the discipline of project management can provide structure to the creative endeavors of product development. While the former focuses on planning, resource allocation, and risk mitigation, the latter demands customer insights, iterative experimentation, and market orientation. Their convergence creates a robust framework where innovative ideas are systematically evolved and delivered. Seasoned professionals benefit from understanding that the fusion of these disciplines delivers enhanced agility, improved stakeholder alignment, and ultimately a product that is both visionary and reliably executed—a synergy that reinforces business success.

Question: What are the unique skills for each role versus shared ones? Where can we go to develop these?
Answer: Project management is built on orchestrating timelines, budgeting, and risk assessment, while product management requires deep market research, customer empathy, and strategic vision. Despite these focal differences, both roles demand high levels of communication, stakeholder management, and leadership. Shared skills include agile adaptability and the ability to lead cross-functional teams toward a common objective. To hone these abilities, pursue PMI certifications for structured process mastery and specialized courses that delve into customer-focused and design thinking methodologies for product management. Professional workshops, mentorship programs, and industry conferences are excellent venues to develop both unique competencies and the overlapping skills that drive integrated success.

Question: How do roles shift between project managers and product owners in today’s job market?
Answer: The modern job market has blurred the traditional lines between project managers and product owners. Historically, project managers concentrated on timelines and execution, whereas product owners drove the vision, prioritization, and customer interactions. Today, however, successful organizations require both to work in tandem. Project managers are increasingly adopting agile techniques to support flexibility, while product owners embrace structured planning to ensure consistent delivery. This evolution encourages both roles to share responsibilities while focusing on their core strengths—ensuring strategic alignment and operational efficiency. In such integrated environments, the synergy between planning and vision results in a more coherent approach to innovation and delivery, benefiting the overall success of the organization.

Question: What approaches can a PM take to transition into a product management role?
Answer: For a PM aiming to move into product management, the journey begins with cultivating a deeper customer and market focus. Immerse yourself in user research, competitive analysis, and product innovation techniques. Start by partnering with product teams on smaller initiatives to gain hands-on experience in setting product vision and gathering customer feedback. Certifications and courses specific to product management can provide a foundational knowledge boost, while mentorship from experienced product leaders can guide your transition. Build a portfolio that highlights instances where you combined project discipline with market insights. Over time, this hybrid experience not only builds credibility but also demonstrates your readiness to lead as both a project driver and an innovator.

As a personal retrospective, the above hindsight and insights draw on years of personal, subjective, and, at times, haphazard journey across product, project, and hybrid roles—blending structured frameworks with agile adaptability. In summary, I hope these detailed perspectives inspire you to apply the principles in your own context while exploring the boundless intersection between strategy and execution.

I had a great time presenting, and the full presentation will be on demand through 31 January 2026. Visit PMI's PMXPO 2025 for more details!

By: Peace Echeonwu, M.Sc.

During PMI’s PMXPO 2025 virtual event, I had the distinct honour of delivering a thought-provoking and insightful seminal presentation. This event was exemplary, featuring distinguished speakers, exhibitions, and a variety of networking activities.

My presentation, "Association Between Emotional Intelligence and Project Professionals’ Perception: A Case Study of Scottish Construction Project Success," focused on the persistent challenges faced by the construction industry in Scotland. A significant proportion of project failures can be attributed to human factors such as ineffective communication, conflict management, and skill gaps. Despite these challenges, 55% of construction professionals are unfamiliar with the concept of emotional intelligence (EI). Research indicates that 70% of project success depends on the clear communication of objectives; however, 55% of construction professionals remain unaware of EI and its impact. This presentation emphasises the crucial role of emotional intelligence in fostering project success by enhancing leadership effectiveness, promoting team collaboration, and facilitating effective conflict resolution. Through the analysis of survey data, this study elucidates the correlation between EI competence and professional experience, demonstrating that higher levels of EI contribute to improved project performance and reduced workplace conflicts.

What is the problem that needs to be solved?

The primary issue that requires attention is the elevated rate of project failures within the Scottish construction industry, predominantly attributed to human-related factors such as suboptimal communication, inadequate conflict resolution, and insufficient leadership capabilities. Research indicates that while 70% of project success is contingent upon effective communication, a notable proportion of construction professionals (55%) remain unaware of emotional intelligence (EI) and its influence on project management. The industry continues to prioritise technical competencies over interpersonal and intrapersonal skills, resulting in barriers in team collaboration, stakeholder management, and ethical decision-making processes. In the absence of integrating holistic EI competencies for uptake and application into project management practices, construction professionals encounter difficulties in navigating conflicts, adapting to project complexities, and achieving successful project outcomes.

Key Takeaways

Key takeaways from my presentation emphasise the necessity of integrating EI training into construction project management to develop critical soft skills. Case studies illustrate real-world applications where EI fosters better client relations, effective communication among stakeholders, team cohesion, and improved self-awareness, self-management, relationship management, social awareness, and enhanced decision-making. The discussion concludes with a call to action: construction professionals must prioritise EI development to enhance productivity, reduce project failures, and create a more inclusive and collaborative work environment. While EI is not a panacea for all project challenges, it is a pivotal competency for sustainable project success.

Always remember this model: Code IOI.E.

During my presentation, I received many great questions that we did not have a chance to cover, and my responses are provided below.

Real-Life Scenario: Lack of Emotional Intelligence in a Construction Project

Project Overview:

• Project Type: Commercial building construction
• Location: Urban site in a high-demand area
• Key Players: Project Manager (PM), Site Foreman, Construction Workers, Subcontractors, Client Representative

The Situation:
The project manager (PM) overseeing the construction of a commercial building lacked key emotional intelligence competencies, particularly in managing conflict, empathy, and interpersonal relationships.

Four Key Events:

1. Communication Breakdown:

• The PM failed to communicate project updates to the site team and subcontractors effectively. When there were delays or safety issues, he would respond defensively instead of acknowledging the team's concerns or providing constructive solutions.
• For instance, a subcontractor expressed concerns about the lack of clear instructions for the next phase of work. Instead of addressing the concern empathetically, the PM dismissed it as a minor issue and accused the subcontractor of not keeping up with the schedule.

2. Conflict Escalation:

• Tensions began to rise between the site foreman and some of the workers due to unaddressed safety risks. Rather than stepping in to mediate or address the underlying emotional concerns, the PM ignored the situation, contributing to a hostile work environment.
• Workers became increasingly frustrated with the lack of leadership and felt undervalued, leading to reduced morale and disengagement.

3. Impact on Project Team:

• Due to the PM’s inability to manage stress and resolve interpersonal conflicts, overall productivity dropped. Workers and subcontractors became more hesitant to report issues or ask questions, fearing a negative or defensive response.
• This lack of communication and leadership led to further delays in the project timeline, escalating costs due to inefficiencies.

4. Client Relationship Strain:

• The client representative, observing the project’s declining quality and delays, confronted the PM about the issues. However, the PM responded defensively, blaming subcontractors and workers rather than taking responsibility for his leadership shortcomings.
• The client began to lose trust in the PM's ability to manage the project effectively, raising the possibility of legal action or termination of the contract.

Consequences:

• Increased Delays & Costs: The project timeline was significantly extended, leading to additional costs for both the client and the construction team.
• Team Burnout: Worker morale hit rock bottom, and some workers even left the project due to a toxic environment.
• Damaged Reputation: The PM’s lack of EI caused lasting damage to his reputation within the industry, making it harder for him to secure future projects.

Key Lessons:

• Empathy and Communication: Effective leadership in construction requires more than just technical knowledge; understanding team members' emotional states and fostering open, respectful communication is essential.
• Conflict Resolution: A project manager must intervene in conflicts early, listening to both sides, and working toward a collaborative solution rather than escalating tensions.
• Emotional Awareness: Recognising when stress levels rise within a team and addressing emotional issues can prevent burnout and disengagement, ultimately ensuring project success.

How can I work on emotional intelligence?

Developing emotional intelligence involves strengthening four core areas: self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship management. To build self-awareness, engage in daily reflection to identify emotional triggers and patterns, and ask for feedback to gain perspective on how your emotions affect others. For self-management, practice pausing before responding in emotionally charged situations, use calming techniques like deep breathing, and prepare strategies for common triggers. These habits help you regulate your emotions rather than reacting impulsively, especially under stress.

Social awareness and relationship management are about understanding and connecting with others. Improve social awareness by observing body language, listening actively, and recognising emotional cues that may not be spoken. To strengthen relationship management, give constructive feedback using respectful frameworks (like Situation–Behaviour–Impact), hold regular check-ins with team members, colleagues, clients, or stakeholders, and prioritise empathy in conflicts. These skills foster trust, collaboration, and more effective teamwork, which are crucial for success in high-pressure professional environments such as construction and project management.

I had a great time presenting, and the full presentation will be available on demand through January 31, 2026 on PMI's PMXPO 2025 site.

By: Aneliya Chervenova, PMP, DASSM

Last month, I presented at the Project Management Institute’s PMXPO 2024 event, held on 21 March. This was a great event with featured speakers, exhibits and networking activities.

My presentation Integrating Change Management for Successful System Implementation dove into the heart of what makes or breaks the adoption of new systems within organizations.

In our fast-paced world, the only constant is change. Yet, the sobering reality remains that a significant number of system implementation projects fail to meet their objectives, not due to technical inadequacies, but because of the human element - resistance to change. During the session, I was exploring the critical importance of integrating change management principles from the onset of the project lifecycle to ensure not just adoption, but successful optimization of new systems. 

Here are the key takeaways from the session:

1. Integrate Change Management: Project managers who skillfully integrate change management enhance the likelihood of their projects delivering value. By understanding and addressing the human side of change, they create a smoother transition for stakeholders (end users, their line managers and leaders).
2. Phased and Iterative Transition Planning: Transition activities should be approached methodically. A phased and iterative strategy allows for gradual adjustments, reducing disruption and ensuring a more seamless implementation. 
3. Crafting Effective Change Plans: Successful change plans involve a blend of strategic planning, clear communication, and empathy. Focusing on the people impacted by the change ensures alignment, engagement, and positive outcomes.

During my presentation, I received a lot of great questions that we didn’t get the chance to cover, and my responses are below.

Q: The phrase “new ways of working” has been mentioned a couple of times. What does this mean in this context?

A: In the context of system implementation, “new ways of working” involve shifting from well established, well understood working practices to using new system features and functionalities to drive efficiency. Let’s explore the key aspects:

• Leveraging Features: Users actively utilize system features that were previously untapped or are newly developed and deployed. 
• Efficiency Focus: The goal is to enhance productivity, streamline workflows, and achieve better business outcomes. 
• Adaptability: Users remain open to change and adapt swiftly to system enhancements.

Q: Any recommendations on how early to start engaging impacted parties, particularly when the questions you know they’ll ask are related to development items that are still in flux?

A: When it comes to integrating change management for a successful system implementation, early engagement with impacted stakeholders and users is crucial. Here are some recommendations: 

• Start Early: Begin engaging impacted stakeholders as soon as possible - even if development items are still in flux. Involving stakeholders (start with leadership to align on the expected outcomes/business benefits and get their endorsement) early allows them to understand the context, anticipate changes, and feel part of the process. 
• Transparent Communication: Be transparent about the ongoing development. Share what is known and what is uncertain. Acknowledge that some details are still being worked out. Transparency builds trust and reduces anxiety. 
• Change Champions: Identify change champions within the impacted groups of end users. These individuals can act as advocates, answer questions, and provide reassurance. Their involvement helps bridge the gap between uncertainty and understanding. 
• Frequent Updates: Regularly update impacted stakeholders and users on progress. Even if specific answers aren’t available, communicate the direction, milestones, and expected timelines. Frequent touchpoints maintain engagement. 
• Feedback Loop: Create a feedback loop. Encourage impacted users to share their concerns, questions, and suggestions. Use their input to refine development decisions and address uncertainties. 

Remember, early engagement sets the tone for a successful implementation. By involving stakeholders from the outset, you build a foundation of collaboration and alignment.

Q: Where does change readiness come into play?

A: Change readiness is a critical factor that spans across all three phases of the system implementation process: Prepare Approach, Manage Change, and Sustain Outcome. Let’s explore how it fits into each phase:

1. Prepare Approach:

• Assessing Readiness:
  • Before diving into implementation planning, evaluate the impacted team’s readiness for change.
  • Understand the current state, including ways of working (especially when legally regulated), capacity, and commitment. 
  • Identify potential gaps or barriers that may hinder successful adoption.
• Ownership and Commitment:
  • Leadership ownership is crucial. Leaders must actively promote the value of the change. 
  • Commitment involves psychological investment and proactive action.

2. Manage Change:

• Communication and Training:
  • Effective communication ensures everyone understands the purpose, scope, and timeline of the change.
  • Training equips individuals with the necessary skills to navigate the new system.
• Change Champions:
  • Identify and empower change champions within the teams of end users.
  • These champions act as advocates, answer questions, and promote adoption.
• Feedback Loop:
  • Create a mechanism for ongoing feedback, such as regular ‘clinic’ sessions.
  • Adjust implementation strategies based on real-time insights.

3. Sustain Outcome:

• Continuous Monitoring:
  • Regularly assess the sustainability of the change, including the level of adoption.
  • Monitor whether the new system is delivering the expected benefits.
• Adaptability:
  • Encourage a culture that embraces change.
  • Be prepared to adjust as needed based on evolving requirements.

In summary, change readiness ensures that the end users are well prepared to embrace the new system throughout all phases, leading to successful implementation and sustained outcomes.

Q: The change plan seems to assume a lot of very thorough and detailed knowledge of the business to anticipate impact. How do you test to determine if the knowledge is sufficient before trying to determine impacts?

A: Running small-scale pilots with local or selected end-user profiles is crucial to quickly learn about change impact, assess knowledge adequacy, and ensure readiness for scaling. If improvements are evident, these changes can be implemented more broadly.

I had a great time presenting, and the full presentation will be on demand through 31 January, 2025. Visit PMI’s PMXPO 2024 for more details.

By: Tyler Norman, PMI-ACP, PMI-PBA, PMP

I recently presented at the Project Management Institute's PMXPO 2024 event, held on 21 March.  This was a great event with featured speakers, exhibits and networking activities. My presentation, Managing Your Career Path Like a Project, focused on using the project management skills you apply in your day-to-day project management activities to take hold of your career planning process.

Starting with a problem statement on realities for today's average employee, this session laid out a framework and methodology for:

• Defining your actual dream role of the future
• Recognizing what it will take to earn that role
• Performing a personal career audit
• Analyzing the gap between current and future state you
• Building a roadmap to future state you

Lastly, the session concluded with some steps to supercharge your career-planning process, including a few you could begin today. Key takeaways included dedicating a minimum of one hour per week to career development, how to build a funnel of mentorship opportunities, to tell your boss directly what opportunities you want, and to embrace opportunities outside of your comfort zone.

During my presentation, I received a lot of great questions that we didn’t get a chance to cover, and my responses are below. 

Q: What advice would you give for implementing a system-wide revamp towards providing all your workforce with these powerful career development skillsets?

A: The best advice I would have for deployment of these methodologies across a broader population would be to share the principles in a fundamental way and with guidance on how to tailor approaches for your staff (who undoubtedly vary in background and skill sets). Next, I would regularly revisit the principles and perhaps even organize smaller working groups to share notes and reinforce behaviors.

Q: The core here is consistency - how did you stay consistent with this practice?

A: The key to maintaining consistency is to systematize these practices, keeping the effort to regularly perform them low. If you make the process a major time and effort lift, it will risk consistency, as it will be more difficult to fit into your schedule. Lastly, be forgiving to yourself. If you miss a period of time, don’t feel that you've lost all progress, but simply pick back up where you left off and continue to build upon yourself.

Q: How do we select a trusted advisor?

A: Finding trusted advisors is a lot like finding best friends. It generally happens organically and is built upon foundational relationships of trust and mentorship. Ask yourself, "Who would I go to if I were facing a challenge in the workplace and wanted to bounce some ideas off of another person I trust?" and you're likely on the right track.

Q: Do you have any suggestions for someone who is changing careers into project management?

A: The principles shared apply, but could be tailored for the specific skillsets required from project managers. Survey project manager roles with companies you would like to work for, and note commonly-listed requirements that you may not have and can target for obtaining. One way to super-charge this transition would be in seeking project management learnings, such as the many offered by PMI.

Q: How do you find mentee opportunities?

A: Joining your local PMI chapter is a great place to start, as many chapters facilitate mentorship programs. Beyond that, identify contacts that you believe you can learn from and ask for mentorship in ways that are low stakes and low time commitment in nature, such as coffee meetings or starting with electronic correspondence.

Closing

I had a great time presenting, and the full presentation will be on demand through 31 January 2025. Visit PMI's PMXPO 2024 for more details.

By: Nick Sonnenberg
Founder, Leverage

In March, I had the honor of joining Kara Austin at the PMXPO Virtual Experience Series for the Book Club presentation (which you can still see on demand through January 31, 2024). I spoke about my book Come Up for Air, and continued the conversation in this blog in May when I answered some questions about changing “free for all” meeting attendance, work management tech systems, and getting your inbox to zero. Now it’s time for another round of Q&As that came from my session, where I address passion projects, overcoming obstacles, skill development and more!

1. What project have you worked on that you were most passionate about? 
The project I'm most passionate about is actually my book that just came out. We've been working on it for the last four years, and there's been so many moving parts. If we didn't have a work management tool to track all the different milestones and tasks, and collaborate with all the different people involved, this book wouldn't have happened.

We had projects for marketing, and then within that we had all the different marketing activities and initiatives like blogs and podcasts and ink articles; and then for actually writing the book, that was a separate project. So all of these various projects had all these milestones and tasks in there, which is where we collaborated. 

All those ultimately lived in a Come Up for Air portfolio, which housed all the projects. So in one place, we could see everything that needed to happen, all the milestones that we were going to hit. And yeah, it took a village to get this done, but if we didn't have it organized, it probably wouldn't have gotten done.

2. What obstacles did you need to overcome for this project to be a success?
So many obstacles. I would say time was the biggest obstacle. I'm the CEO of Leverage full-time, and working on a book is a full-time initiative in itself. So finding the time to be writing a book and working with the team on the book, as well as running a company, I think was the biggest challenge.

3. How did you overcome those challenges?
I would say one, we're all very efficient—we're not wasting time going on a scavenger hunt for information. By keeping things organized and not wasting time looking for something (”What's Aiden supposed to work on today?”), that saved a lot of time. 

I also have a fantastic team. I probably spent over 1,000 hours on this book, but if it weren't for having a full-time head of content on my team that wrote a lot of the book…I might have been able to still write a book, but it definitely wouldn't have been to the quality that you see it today. So I would say have a great team, have great systems. Ultimately, I think it's that simple—but it's not easy all the time to execute on.

4. What advice do you have, or what key lessons have you learned that have helped you manage projects better?
I would say the way that a project is kicked off is critical. So many people don't spend the time to kick it off properly. It could be over a text message or an email, or even in a work management tool, but it's not properly kicked off—meaning you don't establish clear owners or worlds and responsibilities. You don't spend the time to explain: Why are you doing this project? What does success look like? 

You know, a lot of people do post-mortems after projects where you reflect on what went well, what didn't go well, what was learned for the next time. But you might even want to consider a pre-mortem, where you sit down and say, “Okay, we got a book coming out February 2023. The goal is to hit the bestseller list. Now let's imagine that we don't.” And we start analyzing why we don't. You start having that conversation on the front end.

Across companies that we've seen, some teams do this—thinking through what the risks and challenges are, why we might not succeed. And having that conversation up front is so valuable. And having a project manager on the project, or someone that's responsible for making sure that the project's hygienic and that there's not a bunch of things past due, I think is critical as well. 

So in summary: Have you established roles and responsibilities to really kick it off properly with why are you doing this? What's the success criteria? In general, I like to think through the milestones that we need to be hitting before starting to think about all the minutiae, all the tasks. So on that kickoff call, we'll go through the high-level stuff, and then we'll start going from like 30,000 feet to 20,000 feet to 10,000 feet. Meaning, what are the milestones that we need to start hitting and laying out in order to achieve that bigger goal of completing the project? Once you get that, then we start thinking about what tasks we need to hit those milestones. 

5. What skills do you think are most important for project management?
A project manager needs to be organized. I think that you need to be technical, too. In this day and age—look, you could project manage off a piece of paper and a pen. But the future of project management is really about knowing how to use these more modern tools like Asana or ClickUp or Monday, because even if you are really well-organized and you have good follow-through and all of that, if you're not taking advantage of some of these really powerful tools—sure the project still might move forward and things will get done and you'll be on top of it, but these tools are built for a reason. They have functionality to make your life easier. They will allow you to move faster, not have to work as hard, maybe you can manage more projects. 

So you need those qualities of follow-through in an organization, but in the future it's gonna be more and more critical that you know how to use these more modern tools.

6. How would you recommend acquiring skills that someone might not have yet?
Read my book, Come Up for Air! Not to plug my book, but I wrote it because you need to know how to use the functionality of these tools. You could also go on YouTube to learn about how you do various things for whatever tool you need to use. What I found missing—and why I wrote the book—was there's not really best practices. Like, what's the purpose of the tool? When should you use one tool versus another? 

But there's a lot of free stuff online that people could just start Googling, honestly—Google is your friend. There are books out there. There's my book. PMI has some fantastic books, too. So, you know, there's some cheap solutions out there to really get started and inexpensively accelerate your learning.

7. What is your moonshot idea that you would love to assemble a team around and make reality?
Hmm, that's a great question. So this stuff that we do at Leverage, we do operational efficiency training and consulting. So regardless of whether you're a financial advisory firm or not—we've worked with companies that do poop spray, we've worked with some of the largest tech companies—everyone has very similar issues. And what we've established are best practices of when and how to use all these tools. 

And so in the future, what I envision Leverage doing is building technology. So imagine a bot that's living in your Slack or your Microsoft Teams or whatever your internal communication tool is, and that tool is connected to all of these other core tools that you use to collaborate—all these modern tools that kind of fit into my CPR framework that I talk about. Well, there's some common best practices that we teach that we could code and have a bot ping you and say, “Hey Kara, we notice that you have this many past-due tasks…”; or, “We notice that you haven't been getting to inbox zero in your email”; or, “Here’s a little video to remind you of what we've talked about before. And if you need some help, you could read this article or watch this video.”

So I think building some SaaS component to how we're training and consulting that connects to all these tools and tells you exactly where you’re missing the opportunity to be more efficient is the direction that we're going in.